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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

first sail in my new wing keel

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dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/21/2014 : 18:27:48

This was the first time in 7 years that it has been sailing ! I regularly sail in thin water, so it was nice not to hear the swing keel bang. Also not having to raise or lower it is great.

Edited by - dasreboot on 06/21/2014 20:09:56

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2014 : 06:16:38

Yep I love my WK also for the skinny water at my slip that is just under 3ft at low tide and I can still pull out and the zero maintanance but just keep it in the back of your head that the rudder is now the lowest point on the boat.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2014 : 08:42:29

Loved my wing on an inland lake; best of the breed for me.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2014 : 12:44:55

I've known a few wings with tall rigs that fared very well on the ocean and in Long Island Sound. I don't think they give up any appreciable stability over the slightly heavier fin--they concentrate much of their weight down in the wing. Pointing doesn't seem that different, either--wing keels generally don't lose as much traction when heeled as straight fins. Add to that the benefits for skinny water and trailering, and they're hard to beat!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/22/2014 12:45:48

islander
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Response Posted - 06/22/2014 : 16:06:02

The only draw back to my wing would be that when going over wakes from some of the larger powerboats on the Sound the boat will almost stop dead. If sailing at say 5nts and I hit a 2ft wake the boat will slow to 2nts and then recover. I'm assuming it is the wings going up then down acting as a brake similar to an airplane does with its flaps. Do the fin keels do this? It's most annoying in light air when you are trying to maintain the 1-2nts,Then a wake will stop me dead.

Edited by - on

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2014 : 17:58:12

had that happen today in light air, but my swinger would do it as well.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2014 : 18:29:44

They all do it, but I could believe that the wing might be worse for your reasons.. All three versions have advantages and disadvantages in various situations, but I doubt there is really enough difference in performance parameters to really matter. The fin has the most wetted surface but the most keel surface area for lift, the swinger has the deepest draft but with a slot that creates turbulence, the wing has the least sailing draft but the wings to help with lift when heeled. Most of the keel mass is in the top half on the fin and the bottom half on the other two. Overall, I think its a wash.

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hewebb
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761 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2014 : 03:20:49

I have a wing keel and it is great for me. It currently lives on a trailer at a small lake. The only difference is that I cannot seem to point as well as a friend with a fin keel, however the new sail helped some. Saturday I almost stayed with him.

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dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2014 : 04:33:00

wakes would stop me dead in my track when i was coasting between 5 knot puffs. It did seem to coast better that my swing keel, but my new boat has a cleaner bottom. no scaly cast iron keel.

It seemed I could point quite high, at least as high as my swinger, but i think my speed drop off was much greater than the swinger while pinching.

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Merrick
Navigator

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192 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2014 : 14:21:54

did you convert or new boat?

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dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2014 : 04:41:20

you looking for my secret source for wing keels? :) No did not convert. sold my swinger and bought an engineless wing keel in lake norman north carolina last year, off the swap meet area.

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Moontime
Deckhand

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/28/2014 : 12:55:30

I wish to tap into your expertise as sailors of Catalina 25's. I am trying to form an opinion as to the sailing characteristics of the Wing keel of the Cat 25. I want a trailer-able boat to float in Puget Sound and the lakes of North Idaho. Although I don't plan on sailing in heavy weather the chance of being caught is always there. Am currently and seriously looking at a Cat 25 wing keel boat or maybe a Swinger. My biggest concern with the Swing keel is the recovery from a knockdown. Those of you who have sailed much rough water with a Swinger, how do you feel about it. My second concern is that the wing keel doesn't point as well as a fin keel. Is the reduced pointing really a significant issue? If not, I'd go with the wing and forget about the problems of the Swinger. I have read some of your posts already, which say: "Yep, wings are few and far between - but worth the wait and travel to acquire". . . and... "I've known a few wings with tall rigs that fared very well on the ocean and in Long Island Sound. I don't think they give up any appreciable stability over the slightly heavier fin--they concentrate much of their weight down in the wing. Pointing doesn't seem that different, either--wing keels generally don't lose as much traction when heeled as straight fins. Add to that the benefits for skinny water and trailering, and they're hard to beat!" and this is interesting.. "Most of the keel mass is in the top half on the fin and the bottom half on the other two."

Gerry Douglas from Catalina tried to answer my questions colored in blue below, and I appreciate the information but it did not educate me to the level I desire.

------------------------ From Mr Douglas
Between the three; Swing Keel, Fin Keel and Wing Keel, which one points better? compare these please? "the fin is best, the retractable 2nd and the wing 3rd"

Between the three; Swing Keel, Fin Keel and Wing Keel, what are the self righting difference between them? "the retractable keel is not fixed in the down position and will not recover from a knockdown with the keel up, the keel is not fixed when down and may not recover from a 90 deg knock down"

I'm wondering, does the Wing Keel perform closer to the characteristics of the Fin Keel or closer to the Swing Keel, "fin" For all I know, the Swing Keel with its length may be superior in self righting then the others. "it is not" Can you compare these for me please.
------------------------

So, if the wing keel is the worse on point, just how worse is it. Can this be quantified? It does seem insignificant from what I read in your posts, I'm not trying to race. This from another of your post... "It seemed I could point quite high, at least as high as my swinger, but i think my speed drop off was much greater than the swinger while pinching." This is also interesting.

I'm getting the impression that the maintenance on the swing keel with the negative knockdown characteristics is not the best way to go and that the Wing keel may be much better??. So, I'm hoping this Wing keeled boat is the safer, and sails just fine with only a slight but unimportant difference in characteristics then the other boats.

Your opinions please. Yes, I'm a newbie and just trying my best to understand and make the best decision. My first post and hope I put it in the right place
Thank you.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2014 : 14:03:26

Welcome Bruce!

From a safety point of view, on the one hand I have yet to hear of a swing keel C-25 being knocked down to the point that the keel fell back into the trunk, which would indeed significantly lessen its ability to recover. (I have heard of it with a C-22, which has beamier proportions and a lighter keel.) That would be a concern for "blue water" sailing, where you might be days or weeks from shelter from a storm and very large seas that could roll the boat. The C-25 is a very competent coastal cruiser--the kind that when serious weather kicks up on an ocean or a great lake, the prudent sailor returns to or stays in port. However, I've been out in 30+ winds and 4-5' short seas (bigger than they sound!) on Long Island Sound, and the boat was more comfortable than I was!

The wing keel removes a critical maintenance issue, especially in salt water. If the cable or its attachment breaks with the keel up (which is probably where it would be to cause a break), the force of the fall has in many cases cracked the box that contains the keel head and/or the bottom of the hull forward of the keel, and has sunk a number of boats. I know of one owner who, after two such incidents on a dutifully-maintained boat, retrofitted a wing keel from Catalina into his hull, and he's not the only one. Others have had better luck with swingers, and some appreciate the "warning" they get when the keel starts dragging, cuing them to crank it up a little to get through some skinny water.

As I mentioned above, having sailed on a friend's C-25 fin (very much like the boat I owned) side-by-side with a C-25 wing keel on the Pacific, the difference in pointing was negligible, although we weren't racing, or at least not seriously... (The old saying is when there are two sailboats on the same tack on the same body of water, there's a race going on!) Gary Douglas is being technically truthful, but keep in mind that Catalina dropped the swinger about two years after introducing the wing. I think the wing met their expectations nicely, and they wanted to get away from the reliability issues. (Racers could still buy fins, although the C-25 was never in the new market as a "racer's" boat.)

Something else about the wing... After its introduction in 1987, some other significant changes were made, in part taking advantage of the elimination of the swinger and its keel trunk. Notably, in 1989, the cabin sole was flattened and lowered to give more headroom. That and some other changes I can't adequately list off hand make the 1989-1991 models the "pick of the litter" (and the last), with the wing version the most valuable for its trailerability. (Watch that term, however--the C-25 is not what I would call a "trailer sailer"--it's a "transportable" cruiser that takes some time and effort to set up and take down--not something for day-sailing off of and onto a trailer.)

So now I've told you more than I know...

Hope you join the community!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/28/2014 14:49:53

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2014 : 15:03:31

I have an '89 wing and while it may not point quite as high as a fin keel (I've never been on a fin keel version) my guess is that most sailors are not competent enough in their abilities that you could tell the difference. In other words, unless your a very proficient racer you probably wouldn't notice the difference or if you did notice the difference it wouldn't be enough to matter.

If you're casually sailing and not racing it's not going to matter in most cases. I don't race and I don't care if Joe Blow can point 5 or 10 degrees higher than me. I'm just glad I'm on the water.

And I don't have to worry too much about how deep the water is, if a 21' power boat can go through an area of shallow water I can too!

Edited by - GaryB on 06/28/2014 15:04:14

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2014 : 20:39:10

It sounds like you should be in the market for a wing. The swing's keel is iron, and the entire system requires conscientious attention in a saltwater environment. I just looked up PHRF ratings , and all three were 228 (standard rig) on the site I checked. I really don't think you will notice any performance difference. You might not point as high as a swinger, but you might make less leeway when heeled. Minimal keel maintenance might fit you better than a couple degrees of pointing. You will also be able to sail with shallow draft, not so with a swinger - keel down or start the motor. These boats are hard to knock down from wind. I experienced a 70 - 80 degree near knockdown from a wind and wave combo and recovered nicely.

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Moontime
Deckhand

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/29/2014 : 20:28:29

Thank you so much for your timely responses. Exactly what I was wishing for. I'll take a look at the boat now feeling much better with what I know. Sold my water ski boat today in prep for a new girl.

Edited by - on

sdpinaz
Navigator

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USA
193 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2014 : 07:41:20

The condition of your sails are going to make WAY more of a difference in your pointing ability than the keel choice. If you get a wing and it doesn't point as high as you would like, don't blame the keel, get new sails....

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3367 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2014 : 06:52:51

Agree with Scott - The condition of the sails (if stretched) will make a bigger difference with capacity to sail close to the wind maintaining speed than the difference between WK and fixed keel. The WK may be a bit faster downwind....but the degree of fouling on the hull bottom would be a bigger factor.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/01/2014 : 19:34:28

quote:
Originally posted by OLarryR

....but the degree of fouling on the hull bottom would be a bigger factor.

I know what you mean about that! Mine hasn't been out of the water in 3 years! And it hasn't had a bottom job since I bought it 7-1/2 years ago.

Although, I recently hit 5.2 knots in 13 knot winds even with all the gunk on the bottom.

Edited by - GaryB on 07/01/2014 19:35:27

Moontime
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 07/12/2014 : 17:16:46

To GaryB: I agree with those who have replied about the condition of the sails and the gunk on the bottom as being culprits of poor sailing but those would affect the other boats as well. I guess I'd be rather unhappy if, all things equal, the wing keel couldn't match the others in pointing by as much as 10 degrees. Two or three or maybe even five would be acceptable. Anyway, I'm all but ready to pull the trigger on this deal as research has been much more positive then negative. None of you folks that sail wing keels have said anything like 'yea, it doesn't sail so good and won't point as close, etc... wish I hadn't of bought it'. So I get the feeling all are happy with the little 25. I sure like the looks of this one.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/12/2014 : 17:38:03

If you keep your bottom clean you will be way ahead of me. It will definitely make a big difference.

I'd be more worried about the condition of the boat than the type of keel it has.

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