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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

New owner 1 big problem water ballast leak

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Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/02/2020 : 19:38:29

I just bought a 1995 C250 wb. I did not test it in water bought on trailer for 2700 dollars. I new it had sat unattended on a lake mooring for 6 months and had a significant about of water in it.

Hull looks great, owner did not think it had water ballast tank leak

Now I get it home and pull all the stuff out of the inside. I inspect waterballast tank under v birth and the tabbing looks questionable in some areas. So i sanded it down and reinforced with 3 or 4 layers of 6 oz fiberglass tape and epoxy. Then started cleaning th boat.

I stepped the mast( need a mast raising system as it was sketchy)
dropped itin water.
opened water ballast tank .......and it didnt seam to fill well. Bow was still out of the water with no noticable air coming out of water ballast vent in anchor locker after 10 minutes.

Stubborn me spent the next hour and a half slowly filling the balllast through the vent after closing the ballast flooding thingy.

I let air out and kept filling and fillinf and filling.

now I stop and notice the back bilge is full of nice bleach scented hose water.

After redding most of the water the tabbing in the back of the bilge tank ooks suspect too.

now i guess I have to cut out a large section of the floor from the aft birth to truly inspect and be able to get to the are to repair.

Am I heading in the right direction with this?
is there any real chance the leak is under the cabin floor(that would be horrible to cut out)?

Also Previous owner I suspect plced a west maring plastic screw in hatch in the water ballast tank under the sink. I assume this is not factory and does anybody think this is OK?

It did allow mme easy access to pump out my water ballast as my boat is currently afloat in the Marina.

Please has anyone had these issues with Waterballast and had success with repairs.

This was a finger lakes NY boat at one pint

Edited by - Bernardi on 05/18/2020 05:50:52

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2020 : 21:14:18

Welcome Bernardi to the Catalina forum. Congratulations on purchasing your boat. You�re going to learn a lot about your boat in the months to come.

Since I have a C25 model, I have no idea about a C250 water ballast tank and it�s construction or operation.

That said, here are some resources you might become familiar with.

Check out the Manuals and Brochures listed at left. The one for your model may offer some useful details.

Check out the Forum Search section above. Look for articles about the operation of the tank. You might also look for articles about a mast raising system, gin pole or A-frame.

If you know your hull number, you might look it up on the boat search to see whether and where it was listed.

Finally, may I suggest that you include a signature block with some details about your boat type and features, sailing area, your name or handle, and boat name.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/03/2020 06:25:55

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
229 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2020 : 06:53:28

My brother fixed a 1995 C250 water ballast boat. Your problem sounds very much like the problem this particular boat had. Here is a link to his website and small write up. https://www.jag-aire.com/copy-of-cat-250wk

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2020 : 07:27:42

Welcome Richard! Questions are always welcome generally get helpful answers, but another source, as Bruce points out, is the Search function (upper right on the page). Try the following: In "Search For" type ballast leak; select Search for all Words, for "Search Forum", select Catalina 250 Specific; for "Search In", pick Subject Only (for now); select the Archived Posts check-box (to get discussions more than about a year old), and leave Any Date. You'll get several threads on the subject.

There are a couple of threads there that look helpful for you. Then you can continue the discussion here for any other ideas. People might want to see photos of what you're looking at--instructions for including photos are in the Testing forum. The prerequisite is putting the photos on some site (e.g. Shutterfly). Our members can put them in our Photo Gallery.

Best of luck!

EDIT: For more hits, try ballast tank leak in Entire Message.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/03/2020 07:37:00

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2020 : 10:37:04

I did the search and found 4 threads. gives me a bunch of hope that it is repairable. I love the boat otherwise and truly appreciate trailerablity and shoal draft.

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2020 : 16:08:21

Reading the user manual it seems like a pretty straightforward mechanism. You have a threaded water filling port to allow the tank to fill or empty (as appropriate) and you have an air vent to allow the air stuck inside the tank to escape. Either the threaded open ain�t opening (which seems pretty fool proof) or the vent is jammed up with some kinda crap stuck inside it.

I recall I had a centerboard boat years back that would suck up sand and gravel into the centerboard trunk, and if you got the right kind of gravel (about pea size or smaller ) it would jam up the centerboard something fierce. And you never know just the right size thing came along.

I also had some mud dauber hornets fill up my anchor locker drain with mud. Whotta pain!

Hopefully there�s a way to shove a coat hanger wire down the air vent or disconnect it to work out the obstruction.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/03/2020 16:21:23

k3fuller
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2020 : 11:36:49

Can you post a picture of this: "I suspect plced a west maring plastic screw in hatch in the water ballast tank under the sink. " A link to like a google picture is fine if you can't post it in-line.

Are you sure, when you were filling the tank through the vent that you weren't over filling it and the water came out the top of the fill valve area?

I had problems with my boat where my tank was cracked at the edges of the cutout for the transducers. Probably frozen water in the tank by a PO that cracked it. I had that repaired two years ago and all is well. It's my understanding that the water ballast tank is infact that, a complete sealed tank that it tabbed into the hull. I had some questionable tabbing but it didn't make the tank leak, just looked ugly and I had it repaired.

2004 250WB #781

Edited by - k3fuller on 05/04/2020 11:38:27

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2020 : 13:26:32

There is definitely a crack likely in aft area of the ballast tank.
I will post a link or a picture of the hatch that I suspect was not factory . It is 6 inch plastic screw hatch placed under the sink in the galley into the top of the ballast tank.

If this is stock let me know and I will stop worrying about it but seems like weak point in ballast system to me(it is not leaking yet but I have not sailed yet so not heeled over)

[https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--6-screw-in-deck-plate--11743036?cm_mmc=PS-_-Google-_-GSC%3EBrand-_-11743036&product_id=11743036&creative=343879478302&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-r71BRDuARIsAB7i_QNUqOsmj--2AvJVTztWcdA5lOSTgx50iIwwX9mhbTgJait5RWZW1hgaAkDOEALw_wcB]

k3fuller
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2020 : 17:54:26

Sure not stock in my boat! I'd be shocked if someone cut into the tank and installed that!!!

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2020 : 23:20:09

Here�s a link on how to post photos. The instructions are pretty old, but they still work.
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2623

If posting photos doesn�t work for you, I can post photos for you.

I have some thoughts.
The 1995 was the first year in C250 was built. I have a newer boat, but the design remained the same.
Finger Lakes NY, so perhaps water in the tank froze, which cracked the tank.
There are only two opening in the ballast tank.
A) The fill hole connected to the fill value under the stairs.
B) The air exhaust hole connected to the air hose in the bow.
You have already found both, so there is no access hole with a screw hatch.
Somebody else installed one.

You can access the bilge and see the ballast tank in several spots.
V-berth, Port and Starboard seats, galley sink, fill valve access, and the bilge access cover aft of the stairs.
There is about 1-inch above the ballast tank and below the cabin floor.
I can�t think of any spot where the cabin floor is connected to the ballast tank.

The best spot to see the top of the ballast tank is from the bilge access, aft of the stairs.
Put a flashlight in the V-berth.
Use a mirror in the bilge access to inspect the ballast tank.

I would not cut any holes until you find the leak.
Others have used dye in the tank to find the leak.
We need photos to give you more advice.

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 05/07/2020 21:14:50

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2020 : 17:10:22

Welcome to the forum
Re-reading your posting it occurred to me that you could check the following:

1) With the boat in the water and the ballast tank valve closed ensure that the tank opening located in the anchor locker is open. Now proceed to the ballast tank valve compartment and open the valve by turning it counter-clock wise. Important! Press down on the valve stem and listen to the water rushing into the tank. The ballast vent located in the anchor locker will exhaust, under some pressure, the water displaced air. It will take about 10 minutes or less to fill the tank.
The boat including the bow should be on its waterline.

2) Now check the "6" after market" inspection hatch for leaks, air-bubbles or wetness. Chance is that this strange addition is not watertight and leaks.

3) Inspect carefully everywhere the ballast tank meets the hull including the center-board trunk if at all possible. Use a mirror, lights, camera or whatever way provides you some way to inspect

4) Areas where inspection of the tank is very difficult or impossible is below the head and galley. You may inspect as good as possible using the inspection hatch located in the V berth by using lights, a mirror or a camera.

5) While busy inspecting the ballast/hull joint you'll observe some burping and gurgling as more air escapes from around the internal ballast tank baffles. This will continue for some time and is normal.

6) When the tank is full make sure, after 15-20 minutes, you close the ballast intake valve hand-tight.

It would be helpful if you are able to provide photos

Note: Catalina makes a great product and knows what is required. The ballast tank is an integral part of the construction and is well fused to the hull. To the best of my knowledge very few leaks have ever been observed, accidents, hard knocks and perhaps frost excluded

Of course it is possible that your boat has obtained some hard knocks at, above or below its water line. A careful outside inspection of the hull could/should provide you with clues and evidence of this

Hope this helps you... please keep us informed on the forum, we'll gladly be of help

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2020 : 21:11:33

quote:
Originally posted by zeil

Welcome to the forum
Re-reading your posting it occurred to me that you could check the following:

Thanks Henk, you said it much better than I could.

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2020 : 10:59:24

I found a nice trickle of a leak coming from under some fiberglass Matt extending 12 inches from tank.

I am I going to put some dye in the ballast tank to makes sure this trickle is coming from there before I go removing this loose fiberglass and making leak worse.

I am also cutting out a large area to allow for full inspection of posterior aspect of tank as well as the repairs I have to make.

I have ordered a flexible fiber optic camera to inspect areas I cannot easily see and perhaps inspect from the inside of the tank.

I hope to get the inlet valve sealed up enough that I can make repair while the boat is still in water. I do not want to drop the mast and pull the boat out if not absolutely necessary.

I will take photos and post as soon as I get the larger acces hole cut and figure out how to post the pictures according to instructions you all posted previously.

I APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT FROM THOSE WHO HAVE POSTED.I WAS NOT EXPECTING A PROJECT AND THE SUPPORT HAS BEEN A BOOST TO MY MORALE.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR TIME AND CONSIDERATION
Rick Bernardi
Knoxville, TN

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2020 : 18:08:04

[https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/024031478223/media/45111211374/medium/1589157582/enhance][/https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/024031478223/media/45111211365/medium/1589157582/enhance]

the second picture is an access someone put into the top of the ballast tank

The first picture shows the bilge area after I cut out a large area in aft sole.

An obvious leak is coming from under the fiberglass tabbing? in the middle of the picture closest to the white gelcoat(?)

there is a board attached to the hull that the backside of the ballast tank butts up against. The fiberglass cloth tabs from the tank over the board onto the hull in the bilge. I assume water got under the board or somehow under the fiberglass cloth and frost separated it from the hull.

I would like tear out this fiberglass cloth and redo it with epoxy but that scares me. Perhaps I could use a syringe to inject thickened epoxy under the fiberglass cloth to glue it down and seal the leak.

I am not sure how to proceed. The boat is in the water and i would rather not pull it as my marina does not appreciate folks working on boats in the parking lot during their busy months( they don't like it during their slow months either but look the other way).

I did try the food color in the ballast tank and was happy to see green water trickling from under that separated glass mat. I used the access port in the ballast tank to pump out the ballast. hopefully the inlet valve seals it enough to let me make the repair.

Rick Bernardi
1995 Catalina250 wb
Knoxville, Tn

Edited by - Bernardi on 05/10/2020 19:00:56

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2020 : 21:13:23

I'm thinking that for epoxy work you do for this problem, which involves areas that are under stresses of heeling, pounding, pitching, etc., you might want to consider West System's G-Flex resin rather than the more brittle standard versions like 105. But I would defer to a professional's opinion if you can get one.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2020 : 21:20:16

Rick,

I copied your links and made them imbedded photos

Photo1
Bilge aft of the stairs

Photo2
Ballast tank access port under galley sink

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 05/10/2020 21:22:58

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2020 : 22:08:17

Hello Richard

Thank you for the extremely helpful pictures...

The inspection port provides an efficient way to pump-out ballast water while floating. The port should be fine if it does not leak

The photo of the enlarged cut-out inspection area behind the tank, in the aft berth area behind the companion stair, could help in observing where water originates. It appears that a jigsaw was used to cut this section out.

Question regarding the length of the jigsaw blade... could it be that the blade penetrated the tank while cutting? I know this is pretty obvious but you never know...

quote:
there is a board attached to the hull that the backside of the ballast tank butts up against. The fiberglass cloth tabs from the tank over the board onto the hull in the bilge. I assume water got under the board or somehow under the fiberglass cloth and frost separated it from the hull.

Please provide a picture of this

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2020 : 03:12:04

No damage to tank during cutting of access, used multi tool flat blade only about quarter inch deeper than aft sole.

The leak is coming from under the fiberglass Matt 8 inches from the back of the tank near the area with gel coat. Where cloth attaches to the hull about middle of the picture/ cut out area.

Rick Bernardi
Knoxville TN

Edited by - Bernardi on 05/11/2020 05:55:44

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2020 : 08:10:37

If that's the case the leak should be, with having great access, easily fixable. Is there any indication of damage on the outside of the hull?

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2020 : 12:01:42

no indication of damage.

would You remove fiberglass cloth and start over or just patch with epoxy and call it a day?

I am a little nervous about damaging hull while removing that fiberglass ma.

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2020 : 20:13:14

Unfortunately I have little experience with glassing, someone with fiberglass experience will pipe in

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2020 : 18:27:17

Well more digging and cut out a bigger access hole. Now I think the leak is in a slightly different location. I am finding debris that looks like rotted wood as I worked to remove loose fiberglass tabbing.

I think at least part of the board the ballast tank butts up against in rotted.

I am considering using a multitool to plunge cut into it and assess the wood. I may cut out the wood.

My thought is to replace the wood with a filet of epoxy and fiberglass tape. I would imagine this would work as well or better than the wood butt block and not rot out.

Opinions?

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2020 : 19:05:02

[img][/https://photos.shutterfly.com/full/45120728639 ]]

It turns out there is no but block . What I saw when I cut away a section is that it is fiberglass flange at base of tank. I glued the block I cut out it�s epoxy then wen around with epoxy reattaching flange to Hull. Hopefully this starts to fix the water ballast leak. I cut back the loose fiberglass tabbing as far as I felt comfortable using a multi tool . Cutting down towards the hull with multi tool plunge cut blade is a little nerve wracking.

Rick Bernardi
Knoxville, Tennessee

Bernardi
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2020 : 19:08:23

https://photos.shutterfly.com/full/45120728639

I can�t for the life of me embed photos

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2020 : 18:33:48

Hi Rick, not being a Shutterfly subscriber, all I get is a login screen for the site, and no pictures.

I think the difficulty you may be experiencing trying to post an image is that:
(1) You�re not using the correct forum code syntax both before and after the picture object, and
(2) You�re not using the correct type of picture object.

The code goes a little like this, but I�m intentionally using the wrong bracket type here to illustrate:
{img} followed by the full image file name plus extension �.jpg� and finishing with the code {/img}.
As I said, rather than using curly braces {, you should use square brackets [

Now between the brackets, include the full image file object name, for example:
{img} https://www.photos.shutterfly.com/myfeed/boat_pictures/DCIM4352760.jpg {/img}
but with no spaces. In this example, DCIM4352760.jpg is the file name of your photo, and the prefix is the URL and pathname.

The photo website ought to allow you to copy the URL of the photo as one of your options.

If you put it all together and you get the syntax exactly right you�ll publish a photo, I promise.

Using your photo pathname, perhaps the following will work.

Apparently
{img} https://photos.shutterfly.com/full/45120728639.jpg {/img}
is not a valid photo file name.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/24/2020 00:23:59

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2020 : 07:58:49

Shutterfly has suddenly and dramatically changed under the covers... The URL that you get when you "Copy image address" for a photo in Shutterfly is no longer a .JPG file--it's apparently a link to process in Shutterfly that delivers the picture to your screen. I'm a little surprised that process works within our Image function (I just tested it), but the links I set up in my Signature to access little thumbnail pictures (JPGs) in Shutterfly no longer work. My old links to larger JPGs in Shutterfly still do-- surprisingly, but perhaps temporarily. (Click one of the boxes in my Signature and you get a photo.) Maybe we should be suspicious..... (Photobucket pulled a fast one a while back, locking up pictures so the only access was by paid subscription.) I wouldn't use one of those sites as my sole repository of photos (and never have).

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/24/2020 08:06:18

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