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Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/21/2020 : 11:15:29

I sail my cat 25 swing keel on Barnegat bay. NJ. Its often windy. Not too windy for most , but I like 10-12 not 14-16. I will often reef before others. Just so Im relaxing. I have been doing this a while and dont expect Ill change much. I have taken many lessons and Im out there to enjoy not ride as fast as I can go.

I also get a lot of sun during the day and have a bimini but cant put it up with the main. I also have an extra main I could experiment with.

Is it a crazy idea to chop 1 foot off the bottom. Losing close to 10 sq ft/ to enable the pop up and bimini to be up. The gooseneck is adustable. I understanding sailing physic s little and would be worried about the keel force and sail force balance. How will it effect weather helm and drift. Or is it a small change and should I just do it. Has any done this or thought about it.

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2020 : 12:26:19

First, a bimini can be installed on a standard rig C25 so that it doesn't interfere with the mainsail. Many of our members have done it. So, my suggestion is that you let them help you modify your installation so that it works without interfering with your main sail.

I wouldn't worry too much about messing up the boat's balance or weather helm. Weather helm and balance aren't fixed. They're adjustable. You change the adjustments when you change the size of the jib or reef the mainsail, and even by making sail trim adjustments. Generally you keep those matters in reasonable balance by your sail choices and trimming practices.

But, even if you're not a racer, you probably enjoy it when your boat performs well, and become frustrated when you can't keep it moving in light air. Losing 9' of mainsail will affect your boat's sailing ability in lighter air. Speed begets speed. Conversely, the slower your boat goes, the slower it is capable of going. Personally, I wouldn't cut a foot off my main sail if I could solve my problem by modifying the installation of my bimini.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2020 : 14:01:57

My old slip neighbor did exactly what you�re considering. He�s been very happy with it. The improved comfort outweighed the loss in performance.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2020 : 20:47:56

Thank for the feedback. Since I have and extra main sail I can try it with little loss.

I like having both points of view. I think I could modify the Bimini but I would give up head room.

Ill ponder some more

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2020 : 23:26:46

How about cutting a foot off the head and squaring that up. You might need a batten up there to maintain sail shape but if I were going to trim, I�d do it where the effect might be less impactful.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 03/21/2020 23:30:38

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2020 : 08:06:55

You could reef the main then unlock your gooseneck so it slides then raise the main up untill the boom clears the Bimini then lock down the gooseneck and tighten up the main halyard. You could then sail it like that to get a feel for how it would be before cutting things up.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2020 : 20:57:26

This is a good Idea butI often sail wtih the main reefed. it will probably be the same right?

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2020 : 04:38:27

The difference is that normally to reef you would lower the sail but that wouldn't change the height of the boom. This way you don't lower the sail but instead raise the boom to the reef cringle's.
.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2020 : 06:12:51

Thanks. This is a good Idea but I often sail wtih the main reefed. it will probably be the same right?

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2020 : 08:42:44

Just don't take an approach that raises the gooseneck so far that you risk it popping out of the opening in the mast slot, such as when you tension the halyard after tucking in a reef.

How much would you need to shorten the bimini legs to clear the boom without a reef? We put a bimini on our SR, and shortened the legs enough to clear, both at full hoist and with the sail cover on. We could sit comfortably under it, and I could stand behind it and see over the top to leeward when under way.

Squaring off the top would require a new headboard as well as a batten up there, and you wouldn't be able to raise it to the top--it would hang up on the backstay on your first tack. So that might not allow you to raise the boom very much.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2020 : 13:14:03

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Just don't take an approach that raises the gooseneck so far that you risk it popping out of the opening in the mast slot, such as when you tension the halyard after tucking in a reef.

You can get a MastGater sail track gate from Catalina Direct, which will prevent the gooseneck from popping out of the slot.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2020 : 20:44:05

I wouldn't rely on mast gates to hold the gooseneck under load. But they are good for containing the slugs when you reef or drop the sail.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2020 : 14:19:58

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I wouldn't rely on mast gates to hold the gooseneck under load. But they are good for containing the slugs when you reef or drop the sail.

Agreed. If you go with the mast gate, watch for deformation of the gate while under load. The gate will bend and fail before the fasteners fail.

Edited by - sethp001 on 03/24/2020 14:21:37

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2020 : 14:00:49

I put a bimini on our tall rig C25 and could sail it under full main. We transferred the bimini our C22, and it just barely fit without shortening the legs. Being a tall rig, of course you couldn't stand up under the bimini, but we could sail in light air that way. The boom would skim across the bimini frame, sometimes very lightly touching it. If we reefed the main, no problem. Our bimini height measurement was 36" and we had it installed just outside the coaming on the deck, too wide to mount it on the coaming.
With your standard rig, how much would you really need to shorten the main to keep a full hoist?

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2020 : 12:40:43

Thanks for all the feedback. I have a mast gate but I wouldn't count on it holding the gooseneck in. Next time I'm out by the boat I can test some ideas. I think I can lower the legs on Bikini a little. Whats a good clearance distance? 1 inch, 2 inches.T ine tune it I'll have to be under load. I won't cut it for now.

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2020 : 13:52:05

As I recall, I set the topping lift to be just a little slack at full hoist with the mainsheet fully tight. Then I figured the bimini height so the center hoop barely cleared the edge of the sail cover. I think I cut it twice to get what I wanted--it's wise to take off not quite enough the first time. Here was my result:

(Simple geometry shows to lower the height 1", you take off 1.4" of the 45-deg. leg.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

alfreddiaz
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2020 : 10:36:47

I have a C25 tall rig and have considered what you are doing for a number of years. But cost and work involved are the factors that keep me from doing it. If money and time were not an issue, here is what I would do:

(1) Move my boom up a good 8 to 10 inches and attach it there permanently. I would also have to make new track slot opening, which would not be that hard. I think I could grind these out.

(2) Have a new sail made to properly fit the new specs. Or have my current sail reshaped from the top. Again, money is not an issue, so I would have a new sail made.

(3) Install a new traveler over the companionway, making sure it was designed and installed as such that I can still use the pop top. You could also install instead a traveler between the seats in the forward section of the cockpit, which might make more sense considering the pop top. Of course, along with this, you would need to add a triple block to the boom and include proper boom bails. It's doable.

I have sailed on boats with mid-boom travelers that attach at the seat in the cockpit or over the companionway. I find them to nice.

FYI to all the crew, please forgive me if I am using the wrong terms, but I do have the right idea. I have been studying this for years.

Once you do this, you can get a really long Bimini, put in on tracks if you want, and enjoy the shade while sailing.

Also, I am interested in which adjustable goose neck you are using. I have always considered getting one but worried they could not handle the full load of a hard boom slam (not that I should be letting the boom slam). If you don't mind posting or sending either a picture or link or both, that would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Al

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2020 : 12:57:40

alfreddiaz, you might find it easier and cost-effective to sell your tall rig boat and find a standard rig boat. There is another C-25 guy who installed a traveler at the front of the cockpit seats. That would allow for single handing, if desired, rather than a cabin-top traveler.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2020 : 15:15:09

FWIW -- everyone complains about how the tall rig has so little room from boom to "head" I have a Tall Rig with Tall Rig sails and could easily instal a Bimini. To me it all depends on your height ('m 6'2) and how you set your sail. I keep it as far up the mast as possible.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
128 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2020 : 19:21:09

Comfort is important. Unless racing.
I have my sliding gooseneck just above the gate, drill small hole thru the sailtrack near mast, and put in SS pin . Then pull main up fully and start reef and pull mainsheet on until just clears bimini. My 1st reef small flattening reef is almost in. I use Cunningham to hold boom 1/4 in above mast track pin. Sail works well and I can stand under bimini while sailing. My lazy jacks are set to stop boom hitting bimini when lowering .. Don't cut the main

Graeme Bishop boomeroo Australia
C25 SK

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2020 : 12:51:10

Our bimini's leg length was 36" and mounted on the deck outside the coaming. The boom barely cleared it, sometimes brushing the fabric as we tacked. Cutting the legs to 35" should be fine for a tall rig.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2020 : 21:35:31

Tall rig, standard rig, coaming mount, deck mount, fixed gooseneck, sliding gooseneck below or above (

) the mast gate, 45 or 55 degree legs, sail cover, no sail cover,... Too many variables. Mount the bimini, see how it clears, try out your high school geometry, cut off a little, see how it clears, and then maybe cut off a little more...

(When it's over, tell your geometry teacher how well s/he prepared you.

)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2020 : 20:12:22

Well I did mount it already but have to raise the topping lift to use it at the height I like. Im tall.

So maybe Ill just try to raise the gooseneck with a reef and see how it does.

Thanks

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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