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Catalississippi
1st Mate

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USA
40 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/17/2020 : 14:46:54

First-time poster, long-time reader.

Three years ago, I came into my first sailboat, a Catalina 25, the Suzy-Q. She's the most expensive boat in the water -- free. She is probably not a true "project boat," but nonetheless has a few issues which require varying degrees of attention. This may be the first of several posts I'll put out there about those varying things. I've been working up the nerve to ask all the questions here I have about fixing her up but feared getting chastised for not using the search function properly, which I have actually used quite a bit. Also, I do have Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual (as well as Nigel Calder's electronics book).

I'll start today with a question about the keel cable. Mine needs replacing - I got into the boat knowing that, and I didn't consider it a major issue at first as I often don't mind the keel being at full depth for ballast and control, and my wife prefers it, regardless of our point of sail. We've not very serious racers (beer can league). However, our local water is our fresh water Reservoir (and the river below the dam is currently flooding our capital City here) which is quite shallow in places, and we've run aground several times. It sure would be nice simply to ratchet up the keel a few inches and sail away whenever that happens instead of needing to be towed. It has come time to replace it. I think the wench and tube are ok.)

I was looking at the Catalina Direct part (stainless steel cable assembly), but I have a friend who says I should consider getting a spectra one. I also have read this thread many times (although it's not my specific boat model): http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31425&SearchTerms=vectran Obviously, that'd be great for price, assuming I could get someone to put a good splice in it and add the fork, but I get concerned about any stretch compared to the steel one. Question is this -- for a part like a keel cable, should I not get cute and just get the S/S one since it's a good replacement of the original and I know it'll work?

PS -- Complicating the replacement somewhat is that I have no trailer, and our crane isn't rated to lift a boat as heavy as mine, so if I can't borrow a trailer, I'll likely hire a local diver to do the replacement work.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

Edited by - Catalississippi on 02/17/2020 14:49:15

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2020 : 16:20:25

First, I need to say we point to Search from time to time to help--not to chastise...

Next, while I was never a swing-keel owner, I'll point out that the thread you pointed to is about C-250 water ballast models, which have fiberglass centerboards weighing around 100 lbs.--just enough to keep them down while under way. As you undoubtedly know, your cast iron swing keel weighs 1,500 lbs. I won't weigh in on the possibilities of Vectran for a C-25 keel cable--just suggesting that discussion is about oranges and you have an apple.

Now I yield to the people who know the C-25 SK...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Catalississippi
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/17/2020 : 16:41:18

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter
fiberglass centerboards weighing around 100 lbs.--

....

just suggesting that discussion is about oranges and you have an apple.

Wow, that is an excellent point and one that was completely lost on me. I had assumed his keel was just as heavy. Thanks! I await further wisdom.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2020 : 01:33:40

I owned a �87 swing keel for ten years. I replaced the cable three or four times during that time. I also replaced the �turning� ball every time too. It might be difficult to replace that while the boat is in water.

As for the cable, while many of today�s high tech ropes have great strength, they can still be easily cut. For me, I would stick with SS cable.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2020 : 06:46:14

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

...As for the cable, while many of today�s high tech ropes have great strength, they can still be easily cut. For me, I would stick with SS cable.

There's a point: The turning ball is replaced because the steel cable wears it over time. With something like Vectran, it might instead be the turning ball that wears the cable--probably not a good thing.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Lee Panza
Captain

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465 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2020 : 11:16:02

The failure mode for the ball is that the cable grinds a groove on one side of the ball. This implies that the ball isn't turning freely, which is consistent with what I've observed each time I've changed mine. If the ball sticks badly enough that the rough texture of the SS cable cannot get it to turn you can bet that the smooth surface of a textile rope won't turn it, so the rope will be dragging against the immobile ball. It may not be an issue if the keel is rarely raised, and if the rope is left a little slack while the keel is down, but I'd be dubious about the prudence of using a material that one might think of as a long-term, install-it-and-forget-about-it alternate. We know that the SS cable should be periodically replaced, because SS continuously immersed in water is known to deteriorate over time (which is what started the thread referenced above), but I would think that a more easily abraded material should be closely examined frequently (all the way around). And that's difficult to do on a C-25.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Catalississippi
1st Mate

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40 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2020 : 12:25:42

OP here. Thanks, all. Really appreciate the clear and helpful advice. Sounds like SS is the way to go. I have been wondering about the turning ball, as I understood the issue to be what Lee Panza described - that the cable wears a flat spot within the groove (which eventually becomes sharp on either side) which wears on the cable, causing the cable to break. Judging from what remains of the keel cable in the cabin, that may be what happened to my boat.

I have no idea what my turning ball looks like, of course, and I can imagine it would be very difficult to replace while in the water. I may need to see if I can borrow a trailer to get her out of the water (probably overdue to do that, anyway). Not sure how many C-25 trailers there are at my yacht club, so we may have to see what's close enough to work.

Anyone else on here replaced just the cable while the boat's in the water? I'm hoping that's not too tall of an order with a diver.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

capted
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2020 : 08:07:13

I had a friend do it once on mine. He had to remove a cotter pin and clevis pin to release the cable, then you can lower the cable as he pulls. Definitely a two man job but we did it. It must be a bit fiddly to handle the clevis parts underwater without dropping them. Be sure to have spares and good luck. On the other hand, you can't replace the turning ball in the water, so you should investigate borrowing a trailer. You don't want to have a new cable wear through and break with the keel up! Very expensive.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2020 : 08:20:22

Many marinas have a reduced fee for a short haul. They'll lift it out of the water and leave it hanging in the slings over the parking lot for an hour. Then they'll re-launch it. That should give you enough time to replace those parts. If you're nice, they might even haul it just before closing time and leave it hanging overnight, giving you more time to scrub the bottom or do other minor maintenance.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2020 : 10:05:59

quote:
Originally posted by capted

You don't want to have a new cable wear through and break with the keel up! Very expensive.

...especially including having the boat lifted off the bottom...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Catalississippi
1st Mate

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40 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2020 : 19:25:20

Thanks again. The marina at my yacht club here has a crane rated only at 2,000 lbs., so that's out as an option. Additionally, I cannot find anyone here with a C-25 trailer or even a different trailer but which could handle a C-25. That has surprised me, but I will keep looking. However, even if I could find one, from what I understand, I won't be able to get it onto the trailer with the keel down (at least not at our specific launch ramp). Many slips have lifts at our club, and I'm looking into the possibility of borrowing one of those, but they are also likely not rated for a 4,000-lb. boat. There is a rental crane company that would come out and lift it, but they charge more in one day than this boat is probably worth. Of course, I could look into buying one (not sure where) or even seeing if there is one not too far away from me here - if it's only a few hours' drive, perhaps I could rent it from another person for a few weeks. That's all speculation.
It looks like my most realistic option in the near future is hiring a diver.

On the feeding of the cable down through the tube to the diver, I would have assumed that it would have to go the other way - that the diver feeds it up to me in the cabin - because of the fork which I assume wouldn't fit over one side of the turning ball within the tube. I could be wrong of course, as that's just an assumption.

Any further input which y'all (please excuse my drawl) may have would certainly be welcome as I'm still trying to think through this task.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

glivs
Admiral

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822 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2020 : 20:37:43

Let me be a bit blunt. Listen carefully to the suggestions offered. The knowledge and experience here is substantial although, of course, we do not know your situation. In particular, I don't know if you are on salt water and able to move between marinas or are confined to the services available on an inland lake, but if it makes sense and you intend on keeping this boat I'd locate the nearest marina with a travel lift that could handle your C25 and schedule to have the boat hauled and placed on stands. Similarly, if you are new to working on and understanding how swing keels function then this is one project you do not want to cut corners on. You saved notably on the cost of the boat, so why not invest in ensuring it is safe. You could get lucky and find a C25 swing-keel trailer but I wouldn't hold your breath. If your cable is questionable, then yes replace it asap but that should not deter you from hauling the boat to replace the turning ball and thoroughly inspecting the remaining lifting hardware. You could/should also address the bottom if need be. As Dave alluded, the potential damage caused by an accidental fall of a raised keel can be significant. If your situation is such that you cannot access a suitable lift, then I'd seek further advice here on the forum.
Good luck and keep us posted on your efforts.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Voyager
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Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 07:55:54

I think you said it right here:
Quote: �However, our local water is our fresh water Reservoir (and the river below the dam is currently flooding our capital City here) which is quite shallow in places, and we've run aground several times. It sure would be nice simply to ratchet up the keel a few inches and sail away whenever that happens instead of needing to be towed. It has come time to replace it�

So you�re limited in the number of marinas that can do the haul. You usually keep the keel in the full-down position, but you�d like to be able to retract it when you run aground.

If the cable is ready to go at any time, I would not use it. If the keel drops accidentally it will most certainly hole your bottom and sink it.

I don�t have a SK and don�t know the details on how to replace the cable, but if there�s any way to haul it or go on Craigslist to find a trailer, it�s definitely worthwhile.

A sunk boat, especially in 8-10 feet of water can be an embarrassment and it�ll really ruin your day!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 09:52:59

I just revisited your reservoir on Google Earth--I remember driving along it on the Natchez Trace back in the '70s. I recall looking at a lot of tree trunks and stumps--probably great fishing, but it looked a bit unlikely for sailing..... I see the Jackson Yacht Club and a nearby marina (?) with what appears to be a lot of good-sized sailboats--bigger than a C-25 and pretty big for trailer launching/retrieving--at least one looks like it could be 36' x 12' beam, which suggests 6-8 tons dry. However, I don't see any travel-lifts, big fork lifts, or the slips you need for them. How did these big guys get into the water and expect to be able to get out? They certainly weren't sailed there originally, and I wouldn't think they're all permanent. Just curious...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/23/2020 10:44:31

Davy J
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Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 11:18:15

One suggestion might be to talk to boat transport companies that can handle sailboats. There are many here in Florida, and many have specialized trailers for sailboats. Not sure where you are located. It might be pricey though.

When I owned my Catalina, I owned a waterfront home and also had a powerboat on a lift. When it came time to change the cable, I added some makeshift chocks to the boat lift and lifted the Catalina. I had photos of the arrangement but photobucket has them locked up.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Davy J
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Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 11:30:43

Here is another, although somewhat scary way to get the turning ball while the boat is in the water. First remove the cable, then use a Forespar Sta-Plug to close the hole, remove the turning ball, install new turning ball, replace hose and clamps, then remove plug and install new cable...... scary....

Forespar Sta-Plug

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - Davy J on 02/23/2020 11:43:42

Voyager
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Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 16:29:23

Make sure to sail into shallow water if�n ya do

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

glivs
Admiral

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822 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 17:33:36

Bruce, thanks for the flag about the FW sailing venue. I clearly missed it when I skimmed through the thread.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Catalississippi
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/25/2020 : 11:27:23

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I just revisited your reservoir on Google Earth--I remember driving along it on the Natchez Trace back in the '70s. I recall looking at a lot of tree trunks and stumps--probably great fishing, but it looked a bit unlikely for sailing..... I see the Jackson Yacht Club and a nearby marina (?) with what appears to be a lot of good-sized sailboats--bigger than a C-25 and pretty big for trailer launching/retrieving--at least one looks like it could be 36' x 12' beam, which suggests 6-8 tons dry. However, I don't see any travel-lifts, big fork lifts, or the slips you need for them. How did these big guys get into the water and expect to be able to get out? They certainly weren't sailed there originally, and I wouldn't think they're all permanent. Just curious...

Good questions, all, and I honestly don't know the answer as to how they got there. There are definitely many boats out there bigger than my C-25. I'd guess what you're seeing is England Harbor near the JYC, and it actually belongs to the JYC - it's our other harbor with cheaper slips and has availability for non-members. There is also Main Harbor on the western corner, but it is mostly covered slips for houseboat and the like these days, though there are some sailboats there, but no crane. The biggest permanent crane I know of is ours at the JYC, but there is of course a company that charges about $2,000 to bring out a temporary crane which could handle lifting larger boats. (The issue then would be, at least for me, how to get it back in when I complete my repairs and where to put it in the meantime.)

Sounds like your memory is working well. There are a few stumps still there, particularly up-river, as it is a shallow body of water (avg. 10 ft) with its primary purpose to be a drinking water source for the area, but also for recreation. It's even lower in the winter months, purposefully. However, there is good sailing to be had. It's about 33,000 acres/51 sq. miles of water. If you were seeing it from the Trace, you were probably seeing some of the more shallow parts good for fishing on the western side. Most of the races are within an area (somewhat) closer to the dam, and courses typically follow channel markers and other bouys to keep folks deep enough to prevent running aground. It may not be much, but it is what we have here in our backyard. But this should explain why I want to be able to pull my keel up.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

Edited by - Catalississippi on 02/25/2020 11:33:41

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/25/2020 : 11:58:08

It sounds like your best recourse is still a diver. You could contact a local dive club and ask if any member would be willing to help you. Explain your predicament and offer to pay. Divers enjoy occasionally having a "task," instead of just sightseeing. My friend's boat was sunk at it's mooring by lightning, and a local dive club raised it for him as a club project.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/25/2020 : 11:58:43

I would ask around. Surely these other boats aren't relying on a single crane at $2000. Sure would be an expensive bottom paint job or having to change some zincs if they are.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

capted
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/25/2020 : 20:34:34

You are correct about how to install a new cable. The top end of the cable is clamped to the winch, and the bottom of the cable has a clevis fitting which won't fit through the hull. So the diver has to pull the old cable down and out, then feed the new cable end up through the hull to his helper. I still doubt you can replace the turning ball without hauling, but there may be some workaround as discussed. Perhaps after you get the keel up you could get the boat on a lift? How did the boat get into the water to start?
Incidentally, a keel fall may not sink the boat. When mine fell, it created a small leak, but I got the boat hauled that day. However, it cost a summer and today's equivalent of $10-15K to get all properly repaired.
Ed

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 02/26/2020 : 15:47:18

I own a C-22 and for five years owned a swing-keel C-25. Both boats are similar in design regarding the swing keel. The rubber hose that the keel cable runs through is there because the top of the "volcano" on the keel trunk that the cable passes through is at or below the waterline, at least it is on the C-22, especially when you are on the boat. Do not attempt to remove the rubber hose or the turning ball while the boat is in the water. Remember, this boat weighs about 4,200 to 4500 lbs empty. It took me about 6 months to find a used trailer for mine, and the one I ended up with was in Ohio (I'm in Tennessee) for a fin keel C-25. Useful for bottom painting and keel cable replacement, but does require deeper water for haul-out. If there are larger sailboats on your lake, someone might have a trailer that could hold your boat. Your only other probable option is renting a mobile crane for a few hours, and you would need jack stands for safety.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 02/26/2020 : 16:00:21

If your boat is on Barnett, talk to folks at the Jackson Yacht Club. someone there might be able to help you.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Catalississippi
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/06/2020 : 18:38:16

Found a diver - he can come do it while in my slip at the JYC. Should have my new cable installed in a few weeks. Depending on the time it takes (charges by the hour), I may ask him to clean the bottom, too.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/09/2020 : 07:30:08

I caution you again, do not attempt to remove the rubber hose between the keel trunk and the cable winch while the boat is in the water.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

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