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Boom kicker for C25

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yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/16/2019 : 08:00:09

Ahoy,

There's a foot of snow on the ground so time to compensate the lack of sailing with shopping online for sailboat things. Our SK, SR, Dinette config doesn't have a topping lift, just a pigtail off the back stay which works great as long as you need not reef and occasionally we take on some novice sailors where I would rather not keep an eye trained on the halyard (or wear a helmet).

I'm intrigued by the boom kicker from CD. We do have a poptop but I imagine it is quick to (un)install to accommodate that, as easy as the vang perhaps? Is it effective? My hope would be to avoid our current situation when wind kicks up, we have to get the boom centerline so it can be tethered to the pigtail and allow the halyard to drop the main until a reef can be thrown in and then hoisted once again. All the while, weather helm is having its way with her because easing the main sheet to spill wind is futile, the boom is fixed on the pigtail.

Thanks,

Carl

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2019 : 14:28:37

I think the best thing to do is install a topping lift, for the reasons you stated.

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2019 : 15:46:49

I have and also vote for a topping lift only for the reason that a boom kicker collapses if you need to lean on the boom. I was helping my friend once when I lost my balance and grabbed for the boom. The boom having a kicker immediately collapsed down dumping me into the cockpit. Needless to say I'll keep my topping lift.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2019 : 07:04:50

Carl, never, EVER, attach the boom to the pigtail while sailing. Were you to get hit by a strong gust you would have no defense. You do not need to drop the sail all the way to reef. Ease the main halyard about 18 inches and haul on the reefing line (I assume that you have one). When the foot of the sail is taut against the boom, tension the halyard again.
With practice you should be able to reef in about 30 seconds no matter where the boom is at the time.
The reefing line, halyards and boom vang ideally should be routed to the cockpit.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2019 : 06:38:29

i have a boomkicker that i was going to sell on ebay. if you are interested i could sell it here

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2019 : 08:49:06

Yepper .. one of the bad things you can do is take off and forget to release the pigtail. Not good.

<< the Reefing Line >>

I rigged one forward and one aft. Its pretty easy to ease the main down and tighten the reefing line on the ( tack reef cringle Ring ) or luff. the tack reef line runs back to the cabin right next to the main halyard.

Then back to the end of the boom and tighten the aft reefing line. ( clew reef cringle )

Then tie up the lines ( buntlines ) that cleans up the sail. But not too tight or it can rip the sail. I've done ripped the mainsail on a catalina 30 one time tying up the buntlines to tight.

I never practice reefing, which is something I should do. it has always gone easy enough when I have done it but I do it so infrequently.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 12/26/2019 08:50:10

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2019 : 09:27:19

Hello Carl,
A friend with a Tartan 40 has a hydraulic boom kicker since his boom weighs over 80 pounds. On our boats the forces of physics are a bit more forgiving.

A piston type boom kicker with a block and tackle may be fine for sailing a C25 or 250, however, like Scott Islander, I rely on my boom while walking around the cockpit and up on the gunwales as a grabber bar to stabilize myself, especially in heavy seas.

I have a nice stout topping lift that�s a straight line to the top of the mast that terminates in a block on the bottom end. Tied to that is a 3X block and tackle that�s about 4 ft long connected to the end of the boom.

That setup allows me to adjust the boom height in the cockpit when the sail is dropped, and while sailing, I can also adjust sail shape with it. It also allows me to secure the end of the boom to the backstay when the sail is down so that the boom doesn�t swing wildly when the sheet is slack.

There have been a few times I�ve used the boom as a �crane� to lift heavy items into the boat. That�s why I like a stout line as a topping lift.

It�s generally a useful device the doesn�t have the negatives of the pigtail and makes sailing a little safer.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 12/26/2019 09:34:52

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2019 : 12:20:07

My old rigging had a pigtail, but I never used it (except sometimes to hang a radar reflector in heavy fog). New rigging doesn't have one.

Both had/have a non-adjustable topping lift. It's just tied off at both ends, set to mindlessly keep the boom end up when the sail comes down. With the sail up, it just sort of gently dangles around, but never gets in the way. Perhaps I feel adjustments to the topping lift have relatively minor effect to sail shape for this KISS cruiser.

But a topping lift seems way more useful/safe than just a pigtail.

RichardG 81 FK/SR #2657
Terminal Island, CA

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2019 : 13:36:32

An adjustable topping lift is the bomb.

Adjust the leach of the sail. Change the amount of pressure on the leach area, which changes the pressure on the tiller. It is an easy way to balance the boat, so it can even self steer.

And also very important you can lift up the boom when you are at anchor, push it way up and cleat the topping lift and the boom is out of the way when you walk around in the back of the boat.

Also relatively easy to make a topping lift adjustable. Add a block on the current line, a few feet up and add a line from the boom up through the block on the end of the topping lift line, back down to a cheek block on the side of the boom then forward to a clam cleat with a bullseye .

They have clam cleats with like a bullseye in it, a clam cleat that secures the line.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 12/31/2019 13:45:58

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2019 : 13:50:16

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

Carl, never, EVER, attach the boom to the pigtail while sailing. Were you to get hit by a strong gust you would have no defense...

X2! If you lose forward motion, and thereby steerage, while dropping (or raising) the sail with the pigtail attached, wind can push you around to the point of jibing, and suddenly fill the sail so getting it down is difficult. If you then rush back to the motor (if it's running) it might not be able to overcome the force to get you back head-to-wind before a jibe. And good luck trying to unhook the pigtail at that point. There are some reasons Catalina Direct's replacement backstays don't have pigtails, and this is one of them. Install a topping lift.

Making it adjustable like Bruce's (which might be the rig I installed on Passage) is helpful, if only for getting just the right length to go just slightly slack as the sail reaches full hoist. Since Passage has a bimini, that precision is especially useful. To center the boom with the sail down, I just hardened the mainsheet to pull against the topping lift.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/31/2019 13:53:28

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2020 : 07:27:25

One other small detail about not having a topping lift. If your mainsail developed a weak spot on the luff it can rip open and the rip continues forward and the boom drops with the remaining mainsail flapping in the wind. Happened to me in 2006.

Thats when I figured out I needed a new mainsail and a topping lift.

Looks something like this..

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 01/02/2020 07:31:42

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2020 : 11:19:53

I'll add that the last time I used my pigtail was the first time I forgot to unhook the boom before hoisting the main.

From then on, the pigtail stayed hooked to the backstay until I replaced the stay with one that didn't have a pigtail.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2020 : 13:24:45

Someone should speak in defense of the lowly pig tail.

The fact that some folks misuse the pig tail doesn't mean there's anything wrong with a pig tail.

If you hook the boom to a pig tail while the sail is still up in brisk winds, what do you think is likely to happen if you bear away from head-to-wind? Don't blame the pig tail for the result.

The boom shouldn't be hooked to a pig tail in strong winds while the sail is still up. It's perfectly OK to hook up the boom after the sail is down. It's also OK to hook the boom to the pig tail in very light air, even if the sail is still up.

Ideally, you should have an adjustable topping lift to catch the boom when you lower the sail. After the sail is down, then you can hook the boom to the pig tail. If you don't have a topping lift, you can lower the sail and catch the boom in your hand, or in the crook of your elbow. After the sail is down, then you can hook the boom to the pig tail. Personally, I wouldn't have a boat that lacked an adjustable topping lift. It's simple, inexpensive and functional.

Pig tails are found on practically all small boats because, if you think about it, you have to have something to hold up the boom when the sail is down. Otherwise, the boom would hang down onto the coach roof.

Sometimes we absent-mindedly forget to unhook the pig tail when we raise the mainsail, especially after we have exceeded a certain age, but that's not the pig tail's fault.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2020 : 09:21:14

quote:

Someone should speak in defense of the lowly pig tail.

The fact that some folks misuse the pig tail doesn't mean there's anything wrong with a pig tail.

I agree. Let me say that I have a topping lift and a pig tail. I use the pig tail to park the boom at the end of the day. It makes it so that I don't have to lose my topping lift adjustment that needs to be precise when you have a Bimini. Just because some have forgotten to remove the boom from the pig tail doesn't automatically make it a worthless item that should be removed at all costs. I wouldn't remove my cleats from the boat just because I forgot to untie one line when pulling out. No, forgetting to do something is definitely not the pig tails fault.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2020 : 14:08:20

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Someone should speak in defense of the lowly pig tail...
Pig tails are found on practically all small boats...

...except all the "small boats" I'd owned and sailed for decades before our C-25. I was used to topping lifts--particularly on boats with no backstays, and our C-25 even had one--the pigtail was new to me. Therefore, even not being all that old at the time, I forgot to unhook it before raising the main one breezy day. I preferred not saying those words in front of my wife (or looking that stupid within sight of my friends' yacht club).

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2020 : 23:50:49

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Someone should speak in defense of the lowly pig tail.

The fact that some folks misuse the pig tail doesn't mean there's anything wrong with a pig tail.

If you hook the boom to a pig tail while the sail is still up in brisk winds, what do you think is likely to happen if you bear away from head-to-wind? Don't blame the pig tail for the result.

The boom shouldn't be hooked to a pig tail in strong winds while the sail is still up. It's perfectly OK to hook up the boom after the sail is down. It's also OK to hook the boom to the pig tail in very light air, even if the sail is still up.

Ideally, you should have an adjustable topping lift to catch the boom when you lower the sail. After the sail is down, then you can hook the boom to the pig tail. If you don't have a topping lift, you can lower the sail and catch the boom in your hand, or in the crook of your elbow. After the sail is down, then you can hook the boom to the pig tail. Personally, I wouldn't have a boat that lacked an adjustable topping lift. It's simple, inexpensive and functional.

Pig tails are found on practically all small boats because, if you think about it, you have to have something to hold up the boom when the sail is down. Otherwise, the boom would hang down onto the coach roof.

Sometimes we absent-mindedly forget to unhook the pig tail when we raise the mainsail, especially after we have exceeded a certain age, but that's not the pig tail's fault.

I agree as well. Being honest, I've forgotten to release the pigtail on several occasions, some even in some relatively stiff winds. Although it got exciting I was able to quickly get the boom in my hands and pull it in enough to release the pigtail. I never really felt like the rig was in danger of coming down! Then again... I didn't wait around to find out (usually the main wasn't even up all the way before I realized my mistake).

Eventually I added a topping lift. I use both now. Pigtail at the dock and the topping lift after releasing the pigtail BEFORE leaving the dock for a sail!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 01/04/2020 23:54:44

Gunner
Deckhand

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Canada
12 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2020 : 07:47:25

Really good information in this thread so far and I'm very interested in adding a topping lift to my C25. I've had a hell of a time reefing my main when the wind pipes up, particularly since I solo sail half the time.

Can anyone tell me how to best rig a topping lift?

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2020 : 08:00:30

Many of us have experienced the phenomenon with the pig tail. It's scary when it happens, because you know you've lost control of the boat, but nothing bad usually comes of it, because, after the initial heeling, the boat vanes into the wind, and that takes the pressure off the mainsail and allows you to unhook the pig tail. Every mistake is a learning experience. If you continue to sail, you'll experience other situations where you briefly lose control and scare yourself, but you'll also learn how to avoid repeating those experiences.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2020 : 08:20:42

The simplest topping lift is to attach a line with an eye splice on one end (usually about 1/4" or a little less) to a pin at the masthead. That's especially easy to do when the mast is down for the winter. Next, attach a small single snatch block to the outboard end of the boom. Next, attach a small clam cleat with fairlead to the side of the boom wherever convenient, usually about 3-4 feet forward of the outboard end of the boom.. Finally, run the line from the masthead, through the snatchblock and through the fairlead and cleat, and tie a stopper knot in the end. Leave about 1' of extra line dangling out of the cleat to allow you to adjust the topping lift.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1889 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2020 : 08:50:29

I use topping lifts similar to the one Bruce described on Dec. 26, 2019, above.

I use a 1/16" or 3/32" 7x7 SS wire from the backstay clevis pin at the masthead crane to a point just above the highest I expect to ever want to haul the boom. For convenience when trailering, it helps if this is low enough to reach a quick release shackle at the end of the wire while standing on the cockpit seats.

From there, I add a 3/16" 2:1 or 3:1 line the rest of the way to the aft end of the boom. (3:1 uses a bullet with becket at the wire, and a small cheek block on each side of the boom as far aft as practical.)

I run that line fwd through a couple fairleads to either a cleat on the boom a couple feet aft of the gooseneck, or to another small cheek block and down to control line turning blocks at the mast step, and aft through a deck organizer to a small cam cleat with fairlead near the controls for reefing lines.

� Leon Sisson

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2020 : 09:43:25

I set mine up similarly, with 1/4" rope (not wire) from the aft mast-head clevis pin to short of the highest point where I wanted the boom. To the end of that, probably using a simple bowline, I added this Harken micro-fiddle block (below), which I used for a 3:1 rig using finer rope between that and a block on the tail of the boom. The V on the side of the micro-fiddle is a jam cleat, so adjustments could be made and secured right there without adding hardware to the boom. Voyage Bruce (on the same boat) probably beefed it up to use it as a crane...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2020 : 20:02:36

Sorry ... this side of the boom does not have the cheek block and clam cleat with fairlead. but it's just a illustration shot. Pigtail, and topping lift, and outhaul and the topping lift line coming out of the clam cleat and the aft reefing line.
My topping lift is from Catalina direct. I removed the pin from the backstay at the masthead and added the wire topping lift.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 01/05/2020 20:07:27

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2020 : 12:50:30

Hi Derek,

This year, I was able to rig the first stab at a reefing system, not ideal because one must support the boom, partially drop the main, go forward to draw down on the cunningham, then swap the outhaul for the reef line at the only cleat on the forward half of the boom. Once the reef line is pulling the new main foot tight, hoist the main to tighten up the luff. I don't understand why Catalina didn't have something else in mind but I plan to get a single line to the cockpit as I used on a Pearson32 which was lovely. Cinching up Reef1 while easing the halyard.

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

Carl, never, EVER, attach the boom to the pigtail while sailing.

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2020 : 12:55:32

Thanks to everyone who posted to this topic. I was out of town a spell and I'm trying to remember where the switch is to get this to email me when my topic has responses.

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2020 : 13:46:14

Hey Carl, hit �Subscribe to this Topic� at the top of the posting.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2020 : 09:39:55

Carl, a single-line reefing system is (IMHO) the easiest way to go. With an adjustable topping lift to raise the end of the boom while you haul on the main halyard from its predetermined reef position. It is very important to get the clew of the main tight down on the boom. (And never tie the reef cringles, just tuck the sail along the boom)

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

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