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Where to purchase new sails

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ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/20/2019 : 12:06:58

I plan on buying a new genoa (probably a 135%) this winter for next season. With so many options of sail lofts, I honestly have no idea where to start. I mainly do cruising, and sometimes some club racing, so I would prefer a sail that could hopefully give me a little advantage going around the race course.

From the low end, it looks like Rolly Tasker has the cheapest around $700, Ullman sails through CD are about $1,200, and I have gotten quote from Precision ($1,300 - $1,500), Hood ($1,500 - $1,800), and Quantum ($1,400 - $1,600). These are all for hank on sails.

I have Rolly Tasker right now for my 110 and main and they seem like decent sails, but don't really know if it is worth paying extra for sails from a more reputable loft (i.e. Ullman, Hood, Quantum, North, etc.).

Thoughts?

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4012 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2019 : 14:59:13

If you can wait till the Annapolis boat show in the fall you can score some good deals on sails. The sail lofts are all looking for winter work then.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1757 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2019 : 15:11:11

I agree with Scott -- but also contact Ullman Ventura (CA) as they make sails for CD and Gary knows our boats and are very reasonable (less than CD). I ship my sails out their for repairs and it is still competitive with local lofts including the shipping.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 07/20/2019 15:12:27

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3411 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2019 : 15:25:07

Comparing costs is not easy since there are a number of variables involved and few take the time to really assess what you are really paying for and therefore it really seems easier to just go by recommendations from others. Problem is that most sailors when posting responses as to what they recommend, most state they like whatever sails they purchased.

With North, Quantum and Doyle, these sailmakers can charge a bit more based on their widespread recognition. But there is more to it than that. For example, I have Quantum Sails. Quantum did an onsite measurement traveling from Annapolis.Md to my marina on the Potomac river in DC. They also assessed my sailing frequency, typical sailing conditions I sail in and my preferences such as I wanted only one set of reef holes mid-way between where the sets of holes are commonly placed on a main sail. Now you do not have to get an on-site measurement. There are plenty of sailmakers that can provide off the shelf sails and as a double check, they have you take your own measurements. But for on-site measurements and custom sailmaking, you are going to pay more and that partially explains the cost differences in your posting. The other biggy is what Mfr & grade Dacron cloth is each sailmaker utilizing. For example, some of the sailmakers utilize Challenge sailcloth and Challenge sells 4 grades of Dacron. Their "Performance" grade is actually their lowest cost Dacron. The higher grade Dacron cloths they sell have increasingly higher thread count/density which is more resistant to stretching and all Dacron cloths eventually stretch. Depending on the frquency you sail, typical wind conditions and those times prone to getting caught in a very high wind condition, the sailmaker may recommend or by default makes their sails out of a higher grade Dacron cloth. My Quantum sails were made out of the 2nd highest Dacron Cloth made by Challenge. Since the sail cloth costs more, the final product will cost more but my sails have held up well against stretching for past 10+ years. They have stretched a bit and I will soon need to bring them in for repair or I may even get them replaced but they are still very good sails with minimal stretching.

Mack Sails, Florida, has a very good website with lots of info on Dacron sailcloth and the differences between the grades. The Challenge website actually has the wind force curves on each Dacron Grade they sell to sailmakers - Indicates how well they hold up to stretching but the website is extremely detailed, in the weeds, and will be a bit hard to follow.

The thing is that all the sailmakers you mentioned have good reputations either for making inexpensive quality sails or making higher quality sails. The thing is really what you can afford and what is worth it depending on the sailing you do, typical wind conditions and sailing frequency. Ullman seems to have good reports by many. Quantum and North are the most expensive and the sailmakers you listed do not all utilize Challenge sailcloth and some are very skimpy on just what thread count and way to compare their sailcloth to others. Then North has their own proprietary sailcloth making it also hard to evaluate unless you can find data parameters to compare to the rest. But amongst those that utilize Challenge sailcloth, those you can at least find out what grade Challenge sailcloth they are utilizing and then compare to another sailmaker that uses Challenge. Also, another confusing thing to be aware of is the weight of the cloth - Some sailmakers utilize a low thread count Dacron grade but with more resin. A higher thread count Dacron sailcloth may actually weigh less but will last longer resistant to stretch due to the higher thread count/density and the sailmaker then being able to sew it up with higher strength thread. Sailcloth with a lower thread count cannot utilize the higher stretch resistant thread (it generally matches the cloth grade/charachteristics) to finish the sail by the sailmaker and besides that, the resin will not resist stretching the same way or as long as a sail made up with a higher thread count/density Dacron.

If you search in the archives setting the range back 2-3 years, there are plenty of postings regarding recommendations including addl sailmakers....but that may just make it even more difficult to make a decision.

Bottom line is that regardless of what you decide to buy, you mostly are buying sailcloth and so, ideally, it would be nice to know what each sailmaker is quoting (Dacron Mfr and Grade) and how it stacks up with quotes from other sailmakers. Good luck !!

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 07/23/2019 15:38:24

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2019 : 20:23:20

Gary Swenson at the Ullman Ventura loft is a legend among Catalina owners, and the resource I would have used if I had bought new sails for Passage. He has a serious racing pedigree, but understands all kinds of uses, conditions, and budgets. And he knows the C-25 better than most of we do--there's no need to start with describing the boat!

Second point: You mention hank-on sails... Now is the time to seriously consider a transition to a "new life" by adding a roller furler. No more dragging a sail bag onto the foredeck, hanking the sail on, running the sheets, arranging it so it doesn't get out of control on the deck on your way out, hauling it up, trying to get it back down at the end of your sail (perhaps requiring going onto the foredeck, un-hanking, folding, bagging, and stuffing back into the cabin or wherever...

With the roller, once you're under sail on the main (or even with the main still covered on the boom), you pull on a sheet to deploy the genoa, sail, and then pull on the furling line to make it disappear. DONE! And if you want less headsail, roll a little of it up. It's just some "pulling of strings." We and others here often took advantage of that convenience by sailing on our roller-genny alone, especially in blustery weather or for a casual sail to nowhere.

Racing? The only disadvantage is that a roller genoa is generally less of a "deck sweeper", but if you're going for a 135%, you're not going for maximum sail area anyway. Hardcore racers who want the most sail class rules (or PHRF) allow want a 155% deck-sweeper (that is too often too much sail for a cruiser and is hard to see under).

So I'm just suggesting you consider this opportunity to change your paradigm... For "mainly cruising", it could change your life! For racing, well, the Americas Cup boats have roller furlers... Talk to Gary.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/23/2019 20:28:34

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2019 : 06:31:20

OLarryR - Thank you for your detailed explanation here. This is exactly the advice I was looking for. Honestly, going into this process, I assumed this would be a "one size fits all" type of project. Once I received the quotes from Quantum and Hood, I realized there must be more to it based on the types of sail cloth they would use, cut, etc. I also guess that is why I have calls from these sail lofts wanting to talk. Even though my Rolly Tasker sails are nice, looking at the website, they do not even explain what type of sailcloth they use to even compare to the other brands. Honestly, for sails this size, the price difference isn't too drastic (I feel like having a custom made sail vs. off the shelf is worth the price). In comparison, I think buying sails is almost like buying a suit...you can get a one-size fits all and make it work for you, or get one that is made exactly how you want.

Stinkpotter - Maybe I'm weird, but I really like my hank on sails. I put a jib downhaul on this year that really helped in getting the sail down in stronger wind conditions. I still wish I didn't have to pack/unpack the sail every outing!

I also reached out to Gary at Ullman and I am hoping to get some input from him. Thanks everyone.

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2019 : 07:12:52

quote:
Originally posted by ryank020

...Stinkpotter - Maybe I'm weird, but I really like my hank on sails...

That might be because you're less than half my age.

I rigged a "downhaul" on a different boat (I called it a "dousing line"--my "downhaul" was for the sliding gooseneck)--it helped. The roller that came on our C-25 (when we were only about 20 years older than you are now) changed our lifestyle!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5882 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2019 : 08:41:04

Age really isn't the main issue. My C&C 35 is primarily a racer/cruiser, and a roller furling 140 lets me race casually, even in light air, and I can easily reduce sail area when cruising shorthanded. A slightly smaller roller furling jib works well for the way I use that boat.

My Cal 25 is a pure one design racer, and it has two headsails, one for light to moderate winds and one for winds over about 18-20 kts. Both are hanked on. All the Cal 25s in the racing fleet use about the same sail inventory. None use furlers. Your sails are the "engine" that drives the boat. To be competitive, you can't let your opponents have a more powerful engine than you, regardless of whether you're 40 or 80. If you're serious about racing, it's frustrating to be perpetually underpowered. When buying sails, it's important to consider what is most important to you, and buy the sails that will give you the most satisfaction, with respect to your sailing goals.

There are generally two types of sail purveyors. Some are sail sellers and some are sail makers. The people who make sails are the most knowledgeable, the most helpful, and the most motivated to provide you the best product for your needs. Sail sellers are generally happy if they make a sale, regardless of whether you're happy with the sail. Some sail sellers can provide decent sails, but you need to be well informed about sail fabrics, sail construction and sail options to get a good sail. You can tell a sail maker where you sail and how you intend to use it, and he can help you make the best choices, and his reputation depends on you being pleased with it. Sail makers have some of their sails made by subcontractors, but they still make sails and hire sail designers, and are very knowledgeable.

If you plan on keeping the boat for awhile, spend a little more for a good quality sail and, when amortized, the extra cost won't seem very important over the long term.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Grato
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2019 : 06:44:10

I bought new Quantum sails this spring for Grato, my FK/TR with roller furling head sail. I did some internet research and decided on Quantum RW1000 sail cloth as I feel this is a good middle ground material for my purposes: Thursday night beer can races and cruising. These are not the cheapest sails but I'm expecting good performance for a long time out of them.

TJ at Quantum was very helpful in answering questions, helping me get correct measurements and helping me decide on some of the details and sail material. I can report A+ customer service from Quantum.

I replaced my old North, partial batten mainsail that had a bolt rope foot with a full batten, loose footed main. Loose footed mains create a much better foil shape all the way to the bottom so definitely the way to go.

My old North 150% Genoa was usually too much sail for the gusty, swirling and generally confused winds we get on Lake Dillon, CO. It was almost always partially furled which kills sail shape. So I decided to downsize to a 110% jib and so far couldn't be happier. I find it drives the boat just fine and doesn't need to be furled nearly as often. I may have reconsidered this if I sailed in steady, light winds normally, but that is not the case up here!

My new sails also feel much lighter weight and stronger compared to the old sails. I guess this is a function of a higher tech sail fabric which is great for reducing weight aloft.

So, my 2-cents would be to get the best sails your budget will allow.

-Mark

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4299 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2019 : 15:55:25

Grato - how old is your 150 and what kind of condition is it in? Possibly interested in selling?

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Grato
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2019 : 11:47:59

quote:
Originally posted by GaryB

Grato - how old is your 150 and what kind of condition is it in? Possibly interested in selling?

Sure, I'd sell it, it'd help offset the cost of the new one. It's in pretty decent shape. I'll have to check the year when I get home.
-Mark

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2019 : 15:54:53

Will give you my sail story. All North sails for racing and now mostly cruising. The main, 110, 150 and triradial spinnaker came with boat later added the 155 and online purchase of small jib used like a storm jib. small jib has window and a cable to raise it off deck for view. Original set just turned 40. Lots of racing and cruising to the Northwest. They are all in good shape. North included small roll of self adhesive repair which just used the season for batten end pockets. I'm very happy with North. The small jib cost $60 but the others well worth the price.

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4299 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2019 : 07:22:14

Grato,

I responded to your PM, wondering if it came through on your end.

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3320 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2019 : 08:18:23

You might give Bartlette Sails a call in Austin, TX. John is a gold medalist on a J-24 at the Pan-Am Games and builds a lot of sails for Catalinas, For a racing sail I don't think anyone builds better.
512-266-1895.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Grato
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2019 : 07:22:22

quote:
Originally posted by GaryB

Grato,

I responded to your PM, wondering if it came through on your end.

No, never saw anything from you. My phone # is in my email salutation if you want to give me a call. Thanks Mark

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4012 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2019 : 16:28:37

CD has a 15% off on sails now. https://mailchi.mp/catalinadirect/off-season-sail-special-222469?e=c78e042800

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

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