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Trouble pointing C25 SK

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yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/10/2019 : 11:27:44

Hi,

We had a fresh breeze the day we splashed Anodyne last weekend in WI. On a lake we have sailed a couple dozen times, in 10kts gusting to 20kts, it was frustrating that we couldn't achieve any reasonable headway under sail.
Constants:
Lake, crew, boat, keel down, rudder
Variables:
<Wind (always) but it was a little gustier than usual
<Mast stepped that weekend so tuning would have been different from last year; however, I tuned the same way last year-spin halyard equal to stanchion on either side after splashing, no Loos gauge but tightened to guesstimate of 50lbs to push an inch in any direction on any stay.
<Backstay (adjustable) tried varying degrees of tension
<Reefed main (first time reefed on this boat but impressed with sailshape and foot looked good and tight
<Genoa (think it's a 130). Due to gusts and first time out this season, furled in a bit and flogging if even 75 degrees off the wind. I tried moving the cars far forward on the track to tighten down the leech. Improvement but ultimately, after trying main only (still reefed) we wound up dousing all sails and using our outboard to motor in.

One thing I noticed was that there was a pronounced thump as the boom would swing on a tack. Come to learn, it was the gooseneck going up an inch or two then settling back down (vang in use). I picked up another mast track nut to place above the gooseneck and keep it in check.

Thanks much,

Carl

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2019 : 13:37:08

To sail closehauled efficiently in 10 kt winds gusting to 20, you need to depower the sails. With the C25s masthead rig, the boat is primarily powered by the jib. The purpose of the mainsail is mostly to help the boat point by pushing the transom to leeward. If you'll look at the image below, the mainsail is relatively flat, and the jib has a much more pronounced curve, especially at the luff. If you could see the force vectors as the wind flows over those sails, you'd see that the jib produces most of the forward drive and only a little heeling moment, while the mainsail produces much more heeling moment, but not as much forward drive. So, your goal, up to a point, generally is to maximize forward drive and minimize heeling moment.

First you trim the jib to maximize its efficiency in relation to the windspeed. You tension the jib halyard enough to remove any wrinkles or scalloping at the luff. Generally, the stronger the wind, the more halyard tension you need. You trim the jib inside the lifelines (you might have to lift the skirt of the jib up and over the lifelines, called "skirting the jib"), and as the windspeed increases, you move the genoa cars aft to flatten the foot of the genoa.

As the windspeed increases, an increasing volume of air is being stuffed through the slot between the mainsail and jib, and at some point the jib will backwind the mainsail, causing the luff of the mainsail to lift in the shape of a bubble. If that happens, ignore the bubble. The only part of the mainsail that's really working is the leech, which is still helping push the stern to leeward.

As the windspeed increases you need to reduce the heeling moment caused by the mainsail by flattening it and by reducing it's area. That means, at first you increase tension on the outhaul, increase halyard tension and tension the cunningham if you have one. The mainsheet should be tensioned to hold the boom down, and the mainsheet traveler should be eased to leeward until the mainsail just begins to flutter very slightly at the luff. That reduces heeling moment and reduces pressure on the rudder, which reduces drag. When you ease the traveler to leeward in strong winds, you'll feel the tiller pressure ease. Whenever you have to pull on the tiller to keep the boat on course, you're creating drag, and slowing the boat. Your goal is to balance the pressures on the jib and mainsail, thereby reducing drag. That increases boat speed. Increased boat speed begets pointing.

On a masthead-rigged boat, a backstay adjuster really has very little to do with pointing. A C25 with a backstay adjuster is adjusted the same general way as one without, and both will point equally well to windward. What a C25 backstay adjuster does for you is it enables you to instantly ease the tension on the forestay when you turn off the wind. That creates forestay sag, which greatly powers up the jib on a reach or run. A boat without a backstay adjuster can't do that.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/10/2019 13:40:15

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2019 : 15:37:33

Steve's directions are excellent as usual. I do everything he says except loosening the backstay when running downwind because I don't want to spill my beer.

I did notice you mentioned the gooseneck going up and down. You should have a downhaul tightened on a cleat in the mast track beneath the boom. If you tighten the boom vang without tightening the downhaul, you may have developed wrinkles (maybe also called "scallops"?) in the body of the mainsail, which of course disrupts air flow across the sail.

Some sailors would say that you don't need the boom vang while pointing to windward, but if you have old sails like mine, the vang can help flatten the sail. After I tighten the vang, I sit on the boom and then reach down and retighten the downhaul to get rid of the wrinkles/scallops in the body of the sail.

In heavy wind, you want to move the jib cars back to flatten your foresail. Move them forward in light air.

On your lake, I wouldn't worry too much about rig tuning. I like a tight rig but sail with plenty of others who have shockingly loose rigs. They are faster than me in light air.

Lastly, since I'm on an inland lake, I don't bother reefing unless I have to let the mainsail out until it luffs to control heel. You may be able to do the same as me. Sailors who frequent coastal bays and the ocean would tell you to reef early and often.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2019 : 19:21:23

Well, reefing can help the problem, since as Steve says, the foresail is the primary driver of the C-25 more than the main, and the main contributes more heeling force (it's "center of effort" is considerably higher than that of the genoa). More heal leads to less directional stability from the keel, and thus more leeway (so even though the bow is pointed where you want to go, you're not going there). I agree with Steve--the main should be flat in heavy air, and the jib slightly full to smoothly direct the air from across to back, which in turn creates your pulling force.

But the most obvious issue is the cars... In stronger wind you want to tighten the foot, not the leech. Moving them forward made the sail more full from top to bottom, increasing heel, decreasing drive, and reducing your pointing ability. That's for very light air where you can't point that high and just want to keep moving. In heavier air, the cars should be moved back to flatten the lower part of the genoa and allow the top to twist off a little, reducing heel. Then adjust the sheets to give a little curvature to direct the wind force as I described above. A board-tight jib is generally not very effective unless you want to move sideways.

And yes--if you don't have a downhaul attached to the little hole in the gooseneck (with a simple stopper knot) and made to a cleat below in the mast track, add that. A sail track stopper can also do it, but I wanted the downhaul for more security--you don't want the gooseneck slider jumping out of the opening in the track!

Keep playing--the answers eventually come to us all...

(ALL of the answers--maybe never!)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/10/2019 19:30:12

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2019 : 19:49:51

Example of jib car placement: My lady and I were invited out for an evening cocktail sail to nowhere on a 38' X-Yacht; sort of a reach out and a reach home... I wasn't paying a lot of attention to his trim and seamanship, but was thinking there seemed to be a lot of heel for the 10-12 kts of breeze and this pretty substantial boat... On the way back, I noticed the jib sheet cars were very close to below the clew, so the sail was bent sorta like a half-cylinder. Ya, I mentioned it casually to the skipper a little later. He thanked me when I saw him a few weeks later. Apparently his boat stood up and took off!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2019 : 07:57:49

After sailing our Capri16, I was surprised at how much heeling the C25's genoa gave. With that history, we were tempted to leave it furled on gusty days because reefed, it's an unimpressive wing shape and unfurled, we get lots of excitement and difficult helm control. The point of moving the cars forward was to pull downward on the leech (genoa) which was flogging badly. Having the cars significantly aft seemed to increase winching effort and just pull down on the sail against the will of the foil, not really affect the sail shape much except to sheet it in. That is, it flattened it relative to the hull but seemed to still be billowy. Regardless, anything short of a broad reach was making the genoa flog. I even had in my notes from last season to widen the flags on the Windex because she pointed so poorly. The net of this story is, more sailing.

Reading above though, I'm recognizing that the main only, especially reefed, wouldn't do much for forward lift given it's small area (although we held 5kts routinely) and a traveler that I'm confused was even included provided it's about a foot in length. I use it because it's there and I like the concept but I can't say I've ever noticed a difference. I sailed a Jeanneau 36i in Bayfield with a massive traveler and it was used more than the main sheet.

The reef I have is comprised of an eyestrap on the aft portside of the boom, running a line from stopper knot up to the reef cringle and back down to an aft starboard boom cheekblock (typically used for the outhaul) and then along the boom via two more eyestraps ending at a cleat on the starboard side of the boom. Forward, the luff is an eyestrap on the port side of the mast, stopper knot with line up and through cunningham, down to a cleat (downhaul) at the base of the boom on the mast. Tension regained from grinding on the halyard.

Outhaul, which is a 2:1 purchase led aft to the end of the boom from the clew of the main, only adjusts from about 1-3 inches. Before the reef was implemented and occupied the aforementioned starboard-side cheekblock and two eye straps to the boom's cleat, that's where the outhaul was. It did/does little more than give a relatively-tight knot. I wouldn't say that it would be my goto for trimming under sail because inconvenient and little to be gained from this setup though I continually read that the outhaul is underused.

Last mention for this transmission is that I have a pigtail and no topping lift which I'm finding not to be interchangeable under load. For instance, if we wanted to reef the main (as we will be practicing for our annual Bayfield outing) if you're having trouble getting into irons and maintaining comfortably, the last thing I prefer to do is stand up on the bench seats, raise my arms over head with a boom at face level, and abandon the helm. The alternative is letting the boom down into the cockpit and drag on the companionway with lots of draft before it totally loses wingshape. Anyway, since you are in that frame of thought, I was wondering what you preferred given that we have a sailpak and lazy jacks. Gets a little crowded back there with the adjustable backstay.

Carl

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2019 : 10:23:56

quote:
Originally posted by yachtsea

After sailing our Capri16, I was surprised at how much heeling the C25's genoa gave. With that history, we were tempted to leave it furled on gusty days because reefed, it's an unimpressive wing shape and unfurled, we get lots of excitement and difficult helm control.

The last two years that I owned my C25 T/FK, the J24 fleet allowed me to race against them, with no handicap allowance, and more often than not, we would be the 2nd or 3rd boat to round the windward mark. The C25 is capable of pointing with some of the best production racers of the era.

The reason why you "get lots of excitement and difficult helm control" is because you're trying to carry too much sail area in too much wind. If you'll partially furl the jib and tuck a single reef in the mainsail in strong winds, the boat will be much more controllable and pleasant to sail. When you're flying too much jib in too much wind, the power in the jib overwhelms the countervailing power in the mainsail, and the jib pulls the bow to leeward. The only way you can resist that is to pull harder on the tiller, which, in essence, drags the rudder sideways and slows the boat drastically. By partially furling the jib, you reduce that imbalance. The pressure on the tiller will be lighter, the boat will heel less and be more under control.

Whatever your concern might be about the less-than-perfect shape of a partially furled genoa, it is insignificant compared to a boat that you can't control.

quote:
The point of moving the cars forward was to pull downward on the leech (genoa) which was flogging badly.

It is universally agreed that the correct positioning of the genoa cars is to move them increasingly aft as the windspeed increases. If the leech of the genoa is flogging or fluttering it probably means that the leech line needs to be adjusted.

quote:
Having the cars significantly aft seemed to increase winching effort and just pull down on the sail against the will of the foil, not really affect the sail shape much except to sheet it in. That is, it flattened it relative to the hull but seemed to still be billowy.

Moving the cars aft does increase the winching effort, but partially furling the jib reduces the winching effort. When you flatten the foot of the jib, the upper part of the sail allows air to spill out, helping the boat remain on its feet.

quote:
Regardless, anything short of a broad reach was making the genoa flog. I even had in my notes from last season to widen the flags on the Windex because she pointed so poorly. The net of this story is, more sailing.

Leave the windex as it is. There's nothing wrong with it.

quote:
Reading above though, I'm recognizing that the main only, especially reefed, wouldn't do much for forward lift given it's small area (although we held 5kts routinely) and a traveler that I'm confused was even included provided it's about a foot in length. I use it because it's there and I like the concept but I can't say I've ever noticed a difference. I sailed a Jeanneau 36i in Bayfield with a massive traveler and it was used more than the main sheet.

Keep using the traveler, but don't expect it's effect to be very noticeable. It's effect is subtle, but you'll understand it better in time. The C25 traveler is as big as it needs to be, especially when coupled with a boom vang.

quote:
Outhaul, which is a 2:1 purchase led aft to the end of the boom from the clew of the main, only adjusts from about 1-3 inches. Before the reef was implemented and occupied the aforementioned starboard-side cheekblock and two eye straps to the boom's cleat, that's where the outhaul was. It did/does little more than give a relatively-tight knot. I wouldn't say that it would be my goto for trimming under sail because inconvenient and little to be gained from this setup though I continually read that the outhaul is underused.

If the outhaul can be adjusted so that the foot of the mainsail is flat, then it's probably adequate. When you trim it under sail, it is much easier if you luff the mainsail first. That takes the pressure off the sail, and makes it easy to adjust. When it's cleated, re-trim the mainsail. It only takes a couple seconds.

quote:
Last mention for this transmission is that I have a pigtail and no topping lift which I'm finding not to be interchangeable under load. For instance, if we wanted to reef the main (as we will be practicing for our annual Bayfield outing) if you're having trouble getting into irons and maintaining comfortably, the last thing I prefer to do is stand up on the bench seats, raise my arms over head with a boom at face level, and abandon the helm. The alternative is letting the boom down into the cockpit and drag on the companionway with lots of draft before it totally loses wingshape.

Agreed, for all the reasons you state! I recommend you rig a simple topping lift.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2019 : 11:01:54

quote:
Originally posted by yachtsea

Outhaul, which is a 2:1 purchase led aft to the end of the boom from the clew of the main, only adjusts from about 1-3 inches...

I assume you have a bolt-rope foot rather than a "loose-foot"--the outhaul doesn't give much shape adjustment for the former. I just yanked it in (2:1) and tied it off for the season. If I had replaced the main, it would've been with a loose foot and multi-part outhaul.

If your genoa doesn't have a foam luff, reefing it will lose some of its flatness as the foot and leech make larger bundles on the furler than the midsection of the sail. That's why foam luffs are recommended for anyone who reefs the genny much. A leech line can help with some minor flapping up high, but too much tension on it can cup the sail, ruining its efficiency to windward. After this season, you might want to have a sailmaker give you an assessment of that genny. There might be some simple things he can do to it, or it might be time...........

But I'm suspicious that when you moved the cars back, you moved them too far back, allowing the top of the sail to twist off too much

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/11/2019 11:11:57

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2019 : 12:58:36

If I was racing one design in a very competitive fleet, I would want to use a racing jib set on a foil, ideally a Tuf Luf or equivalent. But for PHRF racing, especially around the buoys, a roller furling jib isn't a bad way to go. You get a handicap allowance for the furling jib. The disadvantage with regard to sail shape only occurs when you partially furl the jib. If the wind pipes up, you can reduce sail area almost instantly, whereas it takes a lot more time for a boat without a furler to change to a smaller sail. IMO, the biggest disadvantage to a furling jib is that it loses some sail area over a deck sweeping racing jib, because the foot of a furling jib has to be cut away slightly to furl properly. IMO, the disadvantages of a roller furling jib are overblown.

But all that having been said, I race on a Jeanneau 45 with a roller furling jib, and in-mast, battenless, furling mainsail, which most racers would laugh at derisively, but we often find ourselves up front with the "greyhounds" in strong winds as well as light air.

Except in the highest levels of racing, it isn't about the equipment that you have. It's about what you do with the equipment that you have. But that's largely true of most sports. When I was a teenager, I was complaining that my golf clubs weren't very good. My neighbor took my driver and hit several balls straight and 250 yards.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

HerdOfTurtles
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2019 : 14:22:04

I think everyone hit all the important points already, but to reiterate:

1. Jib cars go aft in heavy wind. Genoa foot should be very flat and the leech should be loose enough to open outward at the top to spill air and reduce heeling.

2. The leech flogging should be corrected by tightening the leech line just until the flogging stops.

3. Feathering the main(letting it out) in gusts is effective at reducing heeling.

4. Excess heeling causes the boat to slip to leeward and constant rounding-up can kill boat speed. My bulkhead compass has a gauge along the bottom to measure heel angle. Generally you want to keep the heeling to less than 20 degrees. Past that the keel doesn't track as well, the lateral forces are very high, and you slip to leeward. I posted recently about a race I was in where we were overpowered and heeling too much on the windward leg. We tacked through 111 degrees that race. Normally we would tack through about 90 degrees so we were slipping sideways quite a bit.

5. The gooseneck should be held in place by the downhaul. You mentioned you reefed the main - if the reef line effectively bypasses the downhaul (IE: the line attaches to the reef point on the sail but never attaches to the boom) then obviously this frees up the boom to move upward. Make sure the reef line is attached to the boom on one end.

6. You may have a bolt-rope luff main which had slugs added. This type of luff requires tensioning (and a functional downhaul to do it) by stretching the luff several inches when you tighten the halyard. If you don't do this the leech of the mainsail may actually hook to windward which is really slow and creates a lot of heeling.

1978 Standard Rig
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