Association Forum - Placement of Genoa cars

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Placement of Genoa cars

New Topic

Reply to Topic

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

jmstee
Deckhand

Member Avatar

USA
11 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/30/2019 : 16:09:49

I just got a new 150 genoa for my c25 which is a little bigger than the old sail. I feel like the cars are now too far forward and when close hauled basically pulling straight down on the leech and leaving a belly in the sail. Does anyone have a good base to start with for car placement using a 150?. I feel like they would go right near the winches or just behind them but that seems so far back and makes handling the lines difficult and the lines get caught up on the blocks.

Akenumber
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2019 : 17:15:08

I usually keep mine close to the most aft port. Depending on the wind speed. Not sure if mine is a 140 or 150, but somewhere in there. It's also a deck sweeper.

Ken
San Diego
84 C25 SR/FK 4116
The KRAKEN

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2019 : 18:31:14

The placement of the genoa cars will change with the strength of the wind. On your new sail there should be a webbing strap sewn on the sail that bisects the clew. That is "generally" the best angle of the sheet meeting the sail. In heavy air the clew will be further back because you want the sail flatter in light air you want the sail fuller and the clew will be forward.
So there is no one place for the car,s use that angle as your guide.

John Gisondi
Peregrine #4762

*

Edited by - Peregrine on 05/30/2019 18:42:17

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2019 : 18:48:59

Here's a link to an excellent discussion of the subject. Scroll down to the post by Giulietta, a very knowledgeable Portugese racer. https://www.sailnet.com/forums/learning-sail/35970-adjusting-cars-jib-sheet.html

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2019 : 19:19:06

Yes, what Giulietta calls a genoa traveler, we call a genoa track, but they're the same thing.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2019 : 20:25:06

I re-read G's post and what we call a genoa car, he apparently calls a genoa traveler. His is adjustable under load from the cockpit. Genoa cars that are adjustable under load from the cockpit are also available for C25s.

If a genoa car needs adjustment, I don't usually wait until I tack. I luff the jib, move the car and then re-tension the jib. It only takes a few seconds, and, when racing, you can't afford to lose speed and pointing from a poorly adjusted genoa car.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2019 : 08:05:24

Most of the time you don't need to luff the jib. Have a crew member step on the jib sheet ahead of the car. This takes all the load off the car and it moves easily (and it is much quicker too)

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

jmstee
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2019 : 05:24:36

Thanks everyone. I need to get back out and play with it some more. I understand moving the cars for different wind conditions I was just more curious as to where people with a c-25 and a 150 genoa started as a base. I was out trying to do it all myself the other day so it was hard to move around the boat and get a good visual but from the best position i could find at the time the car was right next to the winches which was difficult to use.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2019 : 07:37:20

It's annoying when you want a definitive answer and all you get is "It depends...," but it really does depend on variables in this case.

Nevertheless, here's a starting point. This photo shows a C25 with a 150% genoa, and the car placement. I'd estimate the wind is about 10-12 kts. In stronger wind, the car should be a bit farther aft, flattening the sail and depowering it. In weaker winds, a bit forward, making it more full, and powering it up.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/05/2019 03:22:14

jmstee
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2019 : 07:43:46

thank you Steve Milby that is exactly what I was looking for. A place to start and then adjustments to be made from there.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2019 : 17:45:12

After looking more closely at that photo, I see his jibsheet runs outside his lifelines. As I recall, I set my car one or two holes farther aft and ran my jibsheet inside the lifeline stanchion and inside the lifelines. That enabled the jib to be trimmed inside the lifelines when closehauled, which let the boat sail closer to the wind. (Bear in mind I sold my C25 15 years ago, but that's the way I remember it. Maybe Derek can refresh my memory on that.)

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/03/2019 17:58:38

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2019 : 10:13:21

I can't picture a big genoa sheeted inside the lifelines on a C-25, but my mind is foggier every day... It would seem the sheet would be pulling on the lifelines except when trimmed really hard. The only picture I could find showed I had the cars right about where Steve's photo shows, by the forward edge of the coaming. But my sail was a 130, so my angle was different, and stayed that way. I set it so the sheet ran roughly perpendicular to the forestay and roller furler, thus the angle didn't change if I rolled up some of the sail, and it was probably optimized more for heavier air (flattening the bottom and allowing the top to twist a little). If I wanted a little more fullness, I just eased the sheet slightly.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2019 : 14:30:12

The way I see it, it wouldn't matter if the sheet is inside or out. The sheet still comes back to the same point so the angle from the sail and to the winch remains the same. To pull the sheet tighter inboard the car would have to be moved to another track inboard of the original track.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2019 : 17:24:40

Looking at some old photos, I don't think I sheeted my jib inside the lifelines. If you look closely, you can just see the lifeline on this side of the jib.

This is a photo of one of the boats that I have crewed on that trimmed its jib inside the lifelines. I was the jib trimmer, wearing the striped shirt and holding down the rail at the time. I always loved this photo, showing three big boats right after the start, with one tacking to clear his air, and thought it deserved to be on the cover of a magazine, but it never was.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/04/2019 17:26:17

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2019 : 22:36:19

But notice the position of the car track--well inside of the stanchions. Even then, easing the deck-sweeping genoa on a beam or broad reach would seem problematic. I suspect they relied on hoisting a spin and getting the genny on the deck. It's a whole different approach to sailing than mine was, although I crewed on a few boats like that in races. I felt like an unpaid laborer more than somebody having a good time, and contrary to others' accounts, I felt like I learned nothing except that some people don't really like to sail unless they can beat somebody while doing it. I guess you don't want me for crew...

Back to sheet routing... It's outside on a C-25 unless you re-rig it. If Steve ran his inside, he wouldn't be able to move the car forward without wrapping the sheet around a stanchion. But remember that the C-25, by sailboat standards, is a somewhat slender hull to work with, so another track on the inside the stanchions might not be ideal.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/06/2019 20:01:08

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2019 : 07:21:54

It sure hurts to get older and memory becomes hazy...On TSU I had a 155% genoa and sheeted inside the lifelines. This gave us a tighter sheeting angle for beating.
The basic position for the genoa cars was 2 track holes aft of the aft stanchion

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2019 : 07:44:15

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

It sure hurts to get older and memory becomes hazy...On TSU I had a 155% genoa and sheeted inside the lifelines. This gave us a tighter sheeting angle for beating.
The basic position for the genoa cars was 2 track holes aft of the aft stanchion

Same here Derek. My photo suggests that I sheeted it outside the lifelines, but I have a nagging visual image in my mind of skirting the jib over the lifelines. My suggestion is that people just try it and see if it works for them.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2019 : 08:03:46

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

But notice the position of the car track--well inside of the stanchions. Even then, easing the deck-sweeping genoa on a beam or broad reach would seem problematic.

Not so. When closehauled there's a great amount of tension on the jibsheet holding the clew down. When the sheet is eased, the clew rises quickly above the level of the lifelines, and the load on the jibsheet becomes more horizontal than vertical.

quote:
I felt like an unpaid laborer more than somebody having a good time, and contrary to others' accounts, I felt like I learned nothing except that some people don't really like to sail unless they can beat somebody while doing it.

All living creatures compete for food, water, territory, etc. Humans compete for those incentives and also in business, politics and for recreation, i.e., baseball, tennis, track and field, soccer, ballroom dancing, sailboat racing, etc. Competition provides an incentive to build superior skills and it encourages creativity in discovering smarter, faster, more efficient ways to do things, and there's great pleasure in participating with friends in a team sport. The space race expanded human knowledge and generated great scientific achievements.

Last weekend I raced on Friday and Saturday, and, on Sunday I sailed a friend's boat while he and his wife looked after their 4 month old son on his first sail. We sailed leisurely across the bay and back on mainsail alone. The interests of racers aren't narrowly limited to racing. I race, daysail, make yacht deliveries, ocean passages and just sail with friends. I'm only a racer when I'm racing. Otherwise I'm a cruiser or daysailor or a passagemaker. It's all good.

Next Friday and Saturday I'll race again, and on Saturday night we'll all raft together for some socializing, and on Sunday we'll all sail back to our marinas.

Next week I'll get my street rod out of the shop and play with it for awhile, or perhaps ride my Harley. It'll go on like that all summer. Racers have varied interests, and we're seldom bored.

quote:
(Steve: Your gigantic C-25 photo makes this thread tedious to read.)

Agreed! I fixed it. I used the first photo because it gave jmstee a clearer view of the car placement.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

jmstee
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2019 : 08:21:36

I liked your first picture Steve milby. I see in this new one though it appears to be inside the lifelines. I'm going to have to try some various configurations this weekend

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2019 : 08:26:40

quote:
Originally posted by jmstee

I liked your first picture Steve milby. I see in this new one though it appears to be inside the lifelines. I'm going to have to try some various configurations this weekend

Good observation jmstee! I missed that. I only looked at placement of the car and didn't give a thought to the lifelines. That settles it! Derek's and my hazy memories were right!

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3474 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2019 : 10:03:21

One of the first things I did when I got my boat about 14 years ago was have my brother drive around us in a motorboat and photograph us sailing so I could get another perspective.

My jib car was behind the winch and you can see the foot of the jib is tight and the slot is open so the car is too far back for this 110 sail. ( I think that's the 110 )

I sail my 150 with the car close to the winch, just ahead of it. A new sail.

That image of a catalina 25 must be from a very early version. The track is inboard from my 84 and the lifeline connects to the top of the bow pulpit, also unlike mine. My sheet have always run outside the life lines.

I'll see if I can get my brother to photograph me again now, with the new sails and all. That would be interesting.

So anyhoo... I think most of the cars are further forward than you would think on new sails. You see most pictures of the catalinas with excessive twist in the jib. If the car is too far back the leech start to flap with more wind and you have to tighten the leech line and sometimes bring the car forward. As the sails get older and more blown out this becomes more so, and then sometimes they get so blown out you have to open the leech by bringing the car back to open the leach. ( and they can flap with higher winds. )

I sit on the downwind side and look up at the slot and the sail and try to figure out where to put the car on any given day.

I've had three sets of sails ( 3- 110 and 3-150 ) over the years at various ages on the sails and this is pretty much the best I can verbalize it. I don't think I knew what the leech line was for the first 5 years, much less how to adjust it.

This is a shot from this March... Trying to gauge the slot.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 06/05/2019 10:36:37

jmstee
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2019 : 14:51:47

"That image of a catalina 25 must be from a very early version. The track is inboard from my 84 and the lifeline connects to the top of the bow pulpit, also unlike mine. My sheet have always run outside the life lines."

I missed that I think it's a later version based on the sail number I have an 85 with number 51 something. They must have changed the track mine runs the whole length of the boat on the toe rail.

Edited by - jmstee on 06/06/2019 06:04:59

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2019 : 20:23:57

I found a listing for an '89 C-25 (the first year of a new generation of the model) that showed straight genoa tracks well inside the gunwale and stanchions. It appears the sheets would run inside the lifelines. But for the C-25's with tracks on the gunwales directly below the lifelines, if the sheets are inside, they will bend over the lifelines or around the stanchions except when the headsail is hardened to the max, and likely even then. I'd say boats before 1989 are designed for outside sheets.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/06/2019 20:27:32

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2019 : 02:49:49

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I found a listing for an '89 C-25 (the first year of a new generation of the model) that showed straight genoa tracks well inside the gunwale and stanchions. It appears the sheets would run inside the lifelines. But for the C-25's with tracks on the gunwales directly below the lifelines, if the sheets are inside, they will bend over the lifelines or around the stanchions except when the headsail is hardened to the max, and likely even then. I'd say boats before 1989 are designed for outside sheets.

I can understand you doubting me Dave, but are you really doubting Derek, the greatest C25 sail trimmer in recorded history?

Look at the photo. The stanchions are vertical to the deck, but the sail is not. The foot of the sail is inside the lifelines, close to the base of the stanchion. As the sail rises from the foot to the head, it trends inboard, toward the centerline of the boat, where the head is attached to the forestay at the masthead, i.e. at the centerline of the boat.

When the jib is eased from closehauled to a reach, the sail moves outside the lifelines, and the sheets drape over the lifelines, but the load on the sheets has become largely horizontal. The farther you ease the sheets, the more horizontal it becomes. As the sheets are eased, the foot of the sail rises at the clew, because of the way the sail is cut. If you attach a whisker pole to the jib to run wing and wing, the pole is set about 4' above the deck, and the pole is horizontal to the deck.

I'll be offline until Sunday. I'm moving a boat north 30 miles today for a race and raft-up tomorrow, and return Sunday.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2019 : 08:41:34

" are you really doubting Derek, the greatest C25 sail trimmer in recorded history?"
No, you are doubting my old genoa trimmer who used to teach sailing at the Naval Academy, or my foredeck crew who had raced boats almost since he could walk!
They were the sail trimmers per excellence who made me look good. I sure do miss them.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Topic

New Topic

Reply to Topic

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.