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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Thread lube, tuning specs

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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/13/2019 : 08:02:58

I am fairly certain this is all been asked before, but what are the recommendations on thread lube for turnbuckles and mast tuning rigging specs for the C-25?

I have the offset backstay and I don't know if there is a set of published tensioning for this particular configuration, but I am going to try to DIY at this year.

I am thinking possibly Teflon bicycle chain lube might work fine after wire brushing the threads of the turnbuckles. I am a salt free lake sailor, BTW. Any thoughts?

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2019 : 10:03:38

SeaLube Turnbuckle Lubricant. You can get it from CD or Lanocote are good to use. Or a Teflon based grease. You could probably use the Teflon chain lube if its thick enough so it won't wash out. Just don't use a metal based product like Neversieze.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/13/2019 10:07:23

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2019 : 11:00:20

I have never lubricated turnbuckles. I don't want them to come unscrewed too easily. The risk of not lubricating them is that stainless steel threads sometimes gall, but it hasn't happened to me in 50 years, so I'll accept the risk. It's your choice. It could happen tomorrow, or never.

I also don't use a Loos gauge to tune my rig. Why? Because there really isn't one ideal tension for all conditions. The tension should be taut in stronger winds, to depower the rig and limit the movement of the rig when it's heavily loaded, and it should be very loose in light air, because a loose rig is more powerful.

What matters is that the rig be erect, in column, that the mast have the correct amount of rake, and that the wires be tensioned correctly for the windspeed. How do you know if the tension is correct? If the wind is strong and the rig is loose, you tighten it enough to hold the rig steady. You don't have to be exacting, because the windspeed isn't exactly steady. It gusts and lulls, so you just have to get it in the right neighborhood. It's something you learn by just thinking about it and doing it, hands-on, and it isn't difficult.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/13/2019 11:42:13

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2019 : 11:34:01

If you have bronze open-body turnbuckles, you won't have galling problems (even with stainless steel studs) and shouldn't need to lube them. If you have Catalina's (or someone else's) stainless closed-body (tubular) turnbuckles with lock nuts, well... I did on a different boat and hated them. Open-body bronze are the things to have--Catalina Direct's standing rigging sets come with them and are a good buy if your rigging is over lets say 15 years old. (The worst corrosion occurs in the wire inside the swages where you can't see it.) If you run bronze cotter pins through the holes in the studs and wrap them back around the bodies, you won't have problems with turnbuckles un-adjusting themselves, even lubed, although you won't be able to easily play with the tensions as Steve is suggesting.

I wasn't a racer, and kept my rig fairly tight so that the leeward upper shroud just barely slackened into wind above 10 knots. The lowers all stayed taut, but were just taut enough to hold the mast in column. I could wave my fixed backstay probably about a foot side-to-side--the forestay had relatively little sag on a beat. A racer would want a split, adjustable backstay to control that sag the way Steve describes.

For those who like to bend their masts to help flatten the main, it's not that effective on a mast-head rig with non-swept spreaders, but can be done somewhat by loosening the aft lowers, tightening the forward lowers, then loosening the forestay and tightening the backstay. I didn't do it on my C-25.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/13/2019 11:37:55

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2019 : 13:43:51

Here's another two-cents worth of free advice.

When I looked into lubes for stainless threads I settled on Tef-Gel for general use with nuts and bolts (most especially for machine screws tapped into aluminum spars). For my turnbuckles, however, I use Boeshield T-9. On one of the bicycle forums people complained that T-9 left a residue on their chains that picked up grit and probably caused unwanted wear. For a boat that doesn't (normally) get too close to the sand I figured this is a plus; a light residue might remain and help prevent galling if I need to turn the fitting in a hurry. Just the same, I apply more whenever I make adjustments, and I've never noticed any build-up. And, of course, no grit.

To add to something Dave B. said, if you still have the tubular-body turnbuckles get rid of them. They can increase the likelihood of corrosion to the threads inside the body cavity by reducing their regular flushing with water containing dissolved oxygen (oxygen exposure keeps "stainless" steel free of corrosion). This is another good reason to coat the threads of fasteners or turnbuckles with a coating that will fill and remain in the tiny spaces between male and female threads (it's OK if it flushes off the exposed male threads). T-9 or Lanocoat are both good, although according to tests done by Practical Sailor Tef-Gel is probably the most resistant to flushing off.

Cotter rings or seizing wire is, of course, necessary if the turnbuckles remain usable. Regardless of what position I leave them in whenever I adjust them, the next time I check them I find that they have turned until they are against the restraints (I use cotter rings). I'd imagine that this would happen even if not lubed, as long as they aren't frozen up.

Incidentally, this boat came with a blown-out main, so I bowed the mast considerably (probably 4 to 5 inches) to flatten it until I replaced it. The forward lowers can indeed induce a significant amount of bend.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2019 : 08:02:04

Thanks all for the advice. On the topic of offset backstay, does anyone here have experience replacing that with a more tuneable set up? Really, not that I plan to race this boat much but I feel that the backstay could be one of the Achilles heels of this boat in Gusty wind conditions. Thanks again for all the good tips.

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2019 : 10:07:46

quote:
Originally posted by AlMo

I feel that the backstay could be one of the Achilles heels of this boat in Gusty wind conditions. Thanks again for all the good tips.

Unlike a fractional rig, a backstay adjuster on a masthead rig, like the C25, doesn't really help significantly when sailing to windward in strong winds. You can only tension it so much, and if you tension it beyond that, you'll damage the boat structurally. If you tighten it until the cable can't stretch anymore, then something has to give, either the cable or the chainplate.

On a masthead rig, a backstay adjuster doesn't significantly bend the mast. It can bend it a little bit, but not nearly as much as on a fractional rig, and accordingly, its effect on flattening the mainsail is negligible. The fractional mast is typically more spindly, and the forestay is attached below the masthead, which facilitates mast bend. The mast on a masthead rig has a much thicker cross section, and, because the forestay is attached to the masthead, it prevents the top of the mast from bending back very much.

By far, the main benefit of a backstay adjuster on a masthead rig is when sailing off the wind. Easing the backstay adjuster lets the whole mast tilt forward, and that creates forestay sag, which greatly powers up the jib. With the backstay fully tensioned, the boat points about the same as a boat without a backstay adjuster, but when it is eased, boatspeed is much improved on a reach or run.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2019 : 15:37:11

Steve - do you use pins or rings in your turnbuckles?

RichardG 81 FK/SR #2657
Terminal Island, CA

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2019 : 15:53:13

quote:
Originally posted by RichardG

Steve - do you use pins or rings in your turnbuckles?

Neither. I tighten nuts and lock washers against both ends of the turnbuckles to prevent the turnbuckles from turning. I've never had one loosen. I have a tremor and don't handle rings and cotter pins very well, but I can put a wrench on a nut with no problem.

It's also much quicker and easier to adjust them, because I can turn each nut one turn and then loosen or tighten the turnbuckle by hand.

I should add that I've seen rings fail. Last year I saw a round SS ring lying on the side deck of a 45' boat and looked up and saw the upper shroud swaying completely freely. It scared the heck out of both the owner and me. The ring either came loose or broke (I don't remember which at the moment). I wouldn't have thought that could happen, but it did somehow, maybe due to a flaw or impurity in the steel ring.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/15/2019 16:24:26

Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2019 : 17:57:56

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

quote:
Originally posted by RichardG

Steve - do you use pins or rings in your turnbuckles?

Neither. I tighten nuts and lock washers against both ends of the turnbuckles to prevent the turnbuckles from turning. I've never had one loosen.

Steve, that's a great idea, using nuts and lock washers. Or maybe even nyloc bolt. I'm going to try it this weekend.

Erik

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

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