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High Moisture In Foredeck

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bigelowp
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Initially Posted - 03/25/2019 : 14:03:56

When I first got Limerick I had a survey performed one good piece of news was that the decks had no moisture issues. About six years ago I again had the decks checked by a moisture meter with no problems identified. About four years ago I began to notice that the non-skid appeared to be wearing off on the foredeck. Each year it has become noticeably worse until two years ago, when an under color of brown (I have tan non-skid) became very noticeable in two areas. Also on those areas the non-skid was completely worn. This past fall I also noticed some pin holes in the brown areas. My plan had been to resurface the non-skid deck area with either KiwiGrip or Awlgrip. First however I had the deck again checked for moisture and have been told the moisture is "off the charts". The yard was so surprised, they had a different person do the readings a second time and chart the data. Long and short is they are telling me the deck core is soaked and are offering a couple of obvious but not-so pleasant choices.

Has or does anyone have "wet" decks and what have you done about them if so?

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 03/25/2019 14:06:16

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/25/2019 : 16:29:44

Crickets....

I've not had mine tested, but I've often thought about spraying out another layer of gel-coat. My plan has been to try it out on some other surfaces first, like maybe the old rudder after I buy a new one.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/25/2019 : 19:43:55

Peter, you have a few options but you only really have one GOOD option.
Remove the deck hardware then get an oscillating cutting tool and follow the outlines of the nonskid to remove the top skin of the deck. Once you can see the core, you can cut it out (carefully) and replace it using foam or wood.
Because of the bowing curvature of the bow�s surface, you�ll have to create thin wedges for the replacement coring so that it follows the contour of the bottom skin.
Once you replace the core you can re-use the top skin if you wish, or can use it as a template for the fiberglass cloth.
You definitely want the foredeck to be as solid as possible - seeing you typically run up and down the affected area whenever you bend on the jib or drop the anchor, you need to have the most solid foredeck as possible.
It won�t sink the ship, but it will affect your safety.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 03/25/2019 19:47:37

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/25/2019 : 20:02:57

Having said that, you could try the following, but I don�t recommend it: map out the soft core and tape it off. Create a regular pattern of a rectangular grid with 1� or 1.5� offset, like graph paper.
Then at each of the intersection points drill out the point with a 1/2� or 5/8� drill bit. Mark the bit so that you don�t drill through the bottom skin.
Let it dry for a week or two under a black tarp with an air space above � like a tent.
Then, get the thinnest epoxy you can find and fill the holes with the epoxy, leaving a little gap or void just up to but under the top skin. Let that cure, the get some Marine Tex and fill the voids a little proud. Once cured, sand them flat.
Depending on how that looks either paint or apply gel coat and finish with a texture coating.
The grid of fillers will restore the strength of the foredeck.
All that said, option 1 is better and probably less work in the end.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
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Response Posted - 03/26/2019 : 06:11:36

I wouldn't start tearing up the deck without getting a second opinion. Id wait a few months then have it tested again by someone different.
Moisture meters can be inaccurate if not maintained properly and not used right.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 03/26/2019 : 09:00:54

As the deck, at the end of this past season, felt solid I am a bit surprised that the moisture readings would be so high -- so I too am a bit suspicious about the moisture meter. I will be at the boat on Friday to look at the data and discuss with them. Was curious if others may have the same issues but just keep sailing.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2019 : 10:11:10

This is a topic for some professional advice, but I'll wade in anyway...

It is possible for wood coring to be wet but not yet rotten--if the moisture entered recently. A few small drill holes can give you clues--I might do it from underneath with a short enough bit to avoid adding to the exterior damage. (Drill bits pull in hard the instant they penetrate the fiberglass.) The drill bit will have either solid wood pieces or muck on it. If solid, then I'd think about two remedies (done together): (1) search out, remove and re-bed all suspicious hardware--pulpit, cleats, anchor locker hinges, anchor roller... and consider cabin-top stuff, gravity being what it is. Then (2) I'd drill through the fiberglass underneath (in the V-berth) enough holes to ventillate the core, leave it for a few months, and then re-test and eventually fill the holes. Meanwhile, you can add whatever you want to the outer surface to regain your non-skid and prevent moisture getting into the laminate (which might be what the meters were picking up in the first place).

For re-bedding, consider Leon's the over-drill, epoxy fill, re-drill method for long-term protection--maybe even with a dose of Git Rot before the thickened epoxy.

If I had to replace the core, I'd do it with one of the composite boards (or maybe get another boat). Just about everything but the hull of my current boat is cored with Nida-Core honeycomb--it's hard as a rock against compression, but apparently can be bent a little (looking at my foredeck). There are other products like hard foam boards, but the distinctions are over my head. Each builder has his own preference.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/26/2019 10:14:31

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 03/26/2019 : 10:39:12

Dave: Will know more on Friday, but as the deck felt solid, everything was rebedded within the past five years, and the "suspicious" looking worn non-skid is recent -- plus the fact the boat has been shrink wrapped each winter, etc., etc., assuming the meter is correct, I bet if the balsa is dried out and new nonskid surface applied as you are suggesting the deck will see many more years of service. Whether it is economically viable is yet another question.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/26/2019 : 15:39:43

and IMHO wax the deck

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

islander
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Response Posted - 03/26/2019 : 16:07:09

So it's been shrink wraped through the winter. Guessing about 5 months. I would really be skeptical about the " Off the charts" reading. Again a second opinion/test can't hurt.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/26/2019 16:09:13

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/27/2019 : 19:37:04

After I made my comments above I took a good look at my foredeck between the cabintop and the anchor locker. The only gap in the deck there is the frosted portlight that allows sunlight into the vee berth. It seems to me that this frosted plastic block could easily leak a fair amount of water in between the top and bottom layers. I�d check it from the top, from the bottom and all over.
I can�t believe it would have moved up from the forestay chain plate, the anchor locker or the cleats. It might be able to leak in from the hatch but I did not see any gap between the top and bottom skins there.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 03/30/2019 : 14:02:27

Spent a lot of time Friday and Saturday on the subject. Bottom line, cabin top, one side deck and cockpit floor measured averaging 30%+ while fore deck and the other side deck range averaged between 15%-25% -- being measured by two people one using a Tramex the other a Electrophysics meter. Lots of discussion at yard. They suggest I spend no more money on the boat, sail as is, and I should get "a few" more seasons before mast step/critical deck hardware cause any safety issues -- as boat currently is used (light daysailing). How and from where did moisture originate? We identified many potential options, some may have been remediated some not so. All boils down to how much do you throw into fixing a boat when there are so many readily available, for less than the repairs will cost. Lots of food for thought!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

islander
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Response Posted - 03/31/2019 : 12:22:34

Sorry to say but I agree with the yard advise. There is a line where the cost to repair isn't worth it. I think you will still get many more years of use if you keep her. I wish I had a better answer.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/31/2019 12:24:49

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/31/2019 : 13:55:18

The out-of-pocket cost of repairing deck core isn't great if you DIY. It's prohibitively expensive to hire it done on a small older boat because it's labor intensive. Here's a link to a video that shows two repairs. https://youtu.be/8OW3Qncbh8o

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/01/2019 : 18:34:45

Steve, the YouTube deck repair video you pointed out was somewhat similar to the repair I outlined in my 3/25 comment above. The guy in the 2nd part of the video tried to salvage the top skin of the engine cover panel, but the wooden core was just not rotted out enough for him to separate it from the wood.
In my post I recommended trying to save the top skin. If Peter could do that, then replacing the core with honeycomb foam would very likely do the trick.
When I sized up the deck area above the vee berth around the frosted glass light I reckoned it would take a day to prep and remove the top skin, a day to remove the wet core and a day or two to clean and replace the core and replace the top skin. Cleanup, sanding and painting would be another day.
It�s a lot of work but the cost would be a few hundred for resin and paint.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
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Response Posted - 04/02/2019 : 04:20:01

Pete's problem is not contained to a small area or hatch. From what he described his entire deck from the rub rail up is wet. Side decks, for decks, cabin top, cockpit floor. Everything but the cockpit seats. That's enormous. Even if Pete has the capability to take on a job like that Think about the resale value of the boat afterwards. Not much in my opinion. If I was looking for a boat to buy I would definitely pass on something that had that much repairs done to it especially when you are in an area where boats are a dime a dozen.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/02/2019 04:58:03

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/02/2019 : 06:33:27

You might be correct that the boat in this case needs too much core replaced to be practicable, but, for the benefit of anyone in the future who combs through our website looking for guidance on the subject, we shouldn't let this thread end on such a negative tone.

I have seen the coring on the coach roof, most of the foredeck and part of the side deck repaired on a smallish boat by an owner, and it's a lot of work, but very do-able. However, your goal should be to restore the boat's functionality, and not to restore it to aesthetic perfection. Don't try to save the skin and restore the factory non-skid. Cut off the skin, dig out the wet core, install new core, fill it with resin, apply a new skin to cover it all, sand it, paint it with Kiwi Grip, and go sailing.

One thing people don't think about when they begin the project is that you must have some way of keeping it covered and protected from rain. Once you remove the skin, rainwater can penetrate into new areas that were previously dry, exacerbating the problems. The next time you go to work on it, you'll have to first dry it out again. If you keep it dry between work sessions, the work will go much quicker.

It's a big, messy job, but it can be done.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/04/2019 : 06:07:48

Wow Scott, your post made me re-read Peter�s 3/30 post, and you�re right! Most of the core is wet especially where it makes the greatest difference - where you walk and run the boat. So I�d agree the best advice is to take a page out of Mad Magazine�s Alfred E Newman�s book: �What, me worry?� and enjoy sailing all spring, summer and fall.
Meanwhile keep your eyes peeled for another boat.
Hint: they�re usually least expensive after Labor Day.
It�s a win-win really. The happiest day in a boater�s life and an opportunity to learn a new boat.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

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Response Posted - 04/04/2019 : 06:16:15

Steve, in your post you bring up a few great points.
�> Don�t try to save the old skin on a major repair. Use the tried and true methods you outlined.
�> Do whatever you must to keep rain water out of the exposed portions of the boat during the repair.
In my experience,I�ve only done one or two-day fiberglass repairs so I�ve never had to consider that aspect.
That�s why this forum is so great. We mostly help prevent our colleagues avoid the common mistakes.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2019 : 08:21:26

Here's another off-the-wall thought for a boat not worth the major surgery, or even major re-bedding projects: Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure. It's a little like penetrating epoxy, but "wateryer" and more like a sealant when it sets up. Squirt it in, under and around anything that might be sources of your leaks. What can it hurt?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/04/2019 08:22:57

islander
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Response Posted - 04/04/2019 : 10:07:04

Without opening the decks up to dry out I think you would be just sealing the water in. If safety is concerning you remember the only stays that rely on the deck are the lower shrouds so I wouldn't worry about a demasting situation. Mostly the deck will start to bulge up around stays that are anchored to the deck as time goes on. Sail the boat and just keep an eye on it. Nothing is going to happen overnight. Or sell it and move on or up.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/04/2019 : 10:36:20

I've seen both methods used, i.e. drilling and filling vs. tearing out the old core material and rebuilding it. Drilling and filling is OK if you're only repairing a small area, because it's easier to dry out a small area. The moisture doesn't have to travel very far to escape from a drilled hole, and you can speed it up by digging out the wet coring with a bent nail and using a heat source.

But for large areas, it's faster to tear it out and replace it, and, if you do it right, you can be sure you'll never have to re-do that area again.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 04/06/2019 : 14:23:45

I have learned more about moisture in fiberglass boats over the past couple of weeks than i ever hoped to and could talk about it for hours, but the key take aways on the subject are: 1. most people including surveyors don't understand how to use a moisture meter correctly. 2. there is much incorrect information floating around out there about moisture, what is "too high" a reading, where, within which laminate structure, etc., etc. 3. there has been a big fear factor created about moisture in fiberglass boats that gets people (like me) too panic. 4. you must dig for reliable informations and opinions, and 5. the amount of moisture that is "safe" depends and changes -- based on factors such as: will the boat be doing serious ocean work? or, will the boat be racing where systems are constantly pushed in every event? or, is the boat doing coastal work in places like San Francisco Bay or Buzzards Bay or will the coastal work be on the Chesapeake or Long Island Sound? or, is the boat in a notoriously humid (or dry) location (tropics)? or, is the boat used on lakes? or, is the boat used for day sailing? etc., etc. I could go on . . .

As it turns out I know some resident experts -- who know other experts -- that I had forgotten about. My son grew up sailing and racing, which he still actively does. He is also a nonmetallic engineer at Electric Boat. One of the sailing friends he grew up with graduated from Michigan with an engineering degree in marine structure and is now a yacht designer at a firm in San Diego specializing in ocean racing vessels. Another childhood friend after college joined an east coast yard that does extensive refits of very pricy yachts -- all have sailed extensively on Limerick, know the condition when we obtained her and have even helped in some of the work on her over the years. So we all skyped and chatted.

From their perspective the elevated numbers are no big deal and they are more concerned about other issues with Limerick. They opined that while Catalina is not known for building boats for ocean work, as a mass producer of boats (like Hunter, Beneteau, J-Boats, etc) they do a good job with the basic glass work like hulls and decks. The guys continued that the moisture most likely has been in the deck for "decades", is now trapped because of all the rebedding and fixing done over the past ten years I have owned her and has propagating into other areas resulting in the elevated meter readings over so much of the boat. While the numbers are high, they suggested I should do periodic readings on dry days, hot days, warm days and cold days throughout the year and see if the readings are consistent or not. If there is significant deviation, the meter or how I am using the meter is suspect. If the readings are relatively consistent then I have a good baseline to use to determine how quickly -- or not -- deterioration is taking place. Meanwhile it was suggested I should reinforce critical hardware with larger backing plates to spread stress. Fix things like window gaskets that have not been replaced. Rebed hardware more often, etc., etc. They also opined what on Limerick they would be more concerned about than moisture in the decks, including: the keel bolts on my boat (Catalina smile); deck to hull seam (easily damaged if in collision with dock); and compression post -- because all are more susceptible to catastrophic failure than wet decks. Based on how I use Limerick none were worried about safety from the moisture and all thought the boat had at least 10 more years of useful life -- albeit with virtually no resale value because people "get freaked" about moisture. The friend who does refits on boats also thought that most fiberglass sailboats used recreationally would have "high" moisture readings opining that he would expect moisture readings to go from 0-5% in the first decade of use and escalate by @5% each decade so most 40 year old boats could well have 20-25%+ moisture in the decks.

All of this confirms what my yard and another yard I discussed this with had said. In short, while "shocking" to hear, the data is not really a surprise based on age, previous condition, manufacturer and use. So I guess I am going to just sail-on for now

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 04/06/2019 19:27:01

islander
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Response Posted - 04/06/2019 : 16:38:40

Sounds like you've done your research, took a step back and came to a good decision. As I said before I'm sceptical about moisture meters and just how proficient the person using them are. I have a feeling that if you do another test in the heat of summer you could come up with different reading than now in the cool damp spring. Anyway I wouldn't let it bother me and continue to sail the boat.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/07/2019 04:13:19

glivs
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Response Posted - 04/07/2019 : 05:40:54

Thanks for posting Peter...a complex issue to mull over

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/07/2019 : 12:26:15

I agree with Gerry in that -- whether most of us realize it or not - our boats are also subject to a similar process.
Now Peter you occasioned to measure the wetness based on a look or feel of your foredeck. And what you found was pretty alarming.

I've been following YouTuber BOAT LIFE for some time now. His deck and hull read over 50% and in some places 60%! This was largely due to a teak deck gone bad with screws penetrating the rotten teak and the top skin of the deck. The water got down into the bilge and did a lot of damage to the frames.

In his case he literally tore open the deck and removed rotten balsa and replaced it, and opened the bilge to find wet pulpy wood. There was no doubt that his boat is structurally compromised and part of the process is to repair it at whatever the cost in time and resources.

In our cases, the core for many of us has elevated moisture, however, this is entirely expected according to the info that Peter has learned.

Funny thing from Peter's report is that the very act of sealing the deck fittings is what traps the moisture IN, rather than keeping it out.

I wonder what most of our moisture readings would be if we had access to the device and knew how to properly use it?

Will it ultimately be fatal to our boats? Probably not within our lifetime.

What should we do about it? Probably what we're already doing. Go out, sail your boat, enjoy it to the max and quit worrying about things that we have little control over.

In the words of the Beach Boys: "Sail On Sailor!!!"

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 04/07/2019 12:36:39

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