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Crack at base of mast

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bjoye
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Initially Posted - 09/26/2018 : 08:22:31

I have a newly discovered crack at the base of my mast. It extends up from the base to one of the bolt holes for the mast step. (approximately 2"). Has anyone dealt with this? From research I think I have a number of choices:

1. Do nothing. I believe the primary load on that area is with stepping and unstepping the mast. I found a picture on the web of a case where both bolt holes failed and tore the front off the mast at the base.

2. Mount a SS strap across the crack to re-enforce the base during stepping the mast. Will not help much while the mast is up.

3. Weld the crack. Seems people have very strong feelings about welding masts. The weld may or may not work and weakens the surrounding metal. Also, you need to treat for corrosion afterwards. Furthermore, I don't know the alloy (perhaps 6061 T6?) used for the Catalina masts and I understand that TIG welding may not work with certain weaker alloys. Someone stated that 30xx, 50xx, 60xx are ok, but 20xx and 70xx will not work. Furthermore, transporting a 30 foot mast to a shop can be a bit of a pain. (The boat is at a private dock right now)

4. Weld a plate across the crack. See above. Same arguments apply.

5. Cut off the bottom of the mast up the the top of the bolt holes. The bolt holes are pretty elongated and base is pretty banged up after 30 year of abuse. I've just replaced my standing rigging and its a bit tight. Might not even need a shim. If I do need a shim, what material. The C-22 shim CD sells looks to be HDPE. Has anyone used a shim on a C-25? if so what material? Will the C-22 shim work for a C-25?

6. JB Weld? Will not help much, will not hurt?

Thanks!

"Frayed Knot" 1989 C-25 WK/SR #5878

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 10:25:24

Possible inexpensive fix is to use a series of all SS worm gear clamps to reinforce the area. say 3-4 of them stacked from the bolt hole down depending on room and maybe 1-2 above the bolt hole although the crack should be stopped by the hole dissipating the force. You just don't want to crack the other side. Get the appropriate diameter and line the worm screws ether on the forward or rear (my choice) of the mast. I doubt JB weld would work here. Cutting the mast is a good choice but would involve raising the mast step equal to what you cut off. Aluminum plate would be my choice. It comes in a variety of thickness and you could stack the plates under the mast step. A machine shop or steel supply can help you and even cut the plates to size for you. You say @2" and I have my doubts that your standing rigging can make up that amount. Welding I won't comment on. There's the transporting the mast problem also. You can try the easiest clamps first and keep an eye on it but if a crack appears on the other side I think you would have to go the more difficult route and cut the mast.

Worm gear All SS clamps for sizes https://www.plumbingsupply.com/clamps.html

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/26/2018 10:45:41

keats
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Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 13:13:39

If that crack has extended to the bolt hole, at least you know it won't continue to grow. If you find a crack in just about any material you can stop it from propagating by drilling a hole at the very end of it.

Good luck with your fix, I would probably bolt up a patch plate.

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 13:20:45

Another option would be to cut the 2" off the mast then take your mast plate to a machine shop and have them make a spacer block (aluminum?) using the mast plate as a template.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 13:35:56

I'd get some advice from a professional rigger. All of the forces that drive and heel the boat are against the chainplates, sheets, and the mast step. It's a critical area. This is what riggers deal with.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 15:48:11

Good advice on using a professional rigger but in this case there is only one answer he will give you and that will be to replace the mast. Anything short of that he would be liable for if something happens and someone got hurt.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/26/2018 16:01:29

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 16:11:30

I suggest you have it welded. Discuss it with a welder who welds aluminum. He might try simply welding it to see if it will hold up. If not, he can weld a collar around it to reinforce it. If he has to collar it, you might have to have a new, slightly wider mast step fabricated to accommodate the collar.

When the mast is in place, the load on the mast is mostly straight down. The crack in your mast probably happened while the mast was lowered, but still bolted to the mast step.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 16:15:41

Hopefully the welder is mobile. If not tell me when your going to take the mast to his shop. I want to see this. A 30ft mast strapped to the roof of the car going going down the road...

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

GaryB
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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 17:25:15

You laugh... I work for a large equipment rental company and back in my early years we had a customer come in to rent a 40' extension ladder. They wrote the guy up and when we went to help him load the ladder we found out all he had to transport the ladder was a late 60's VW beetle!

We tried to explain to him it wasn't safe but he was determined to get the ladder home. We set the ladder on the ground and said there it is. Your on your on loading it. We not going to be liable.

30 minutes later he drove off! Came back a few days later with it on the beetle.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 09/26/2018 17:27:16

Good Times
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/26/2018 : 17:31:34

why not borrow a boat trailer if you don't have one, strap the mast to it and have it welded - just don't burn up the wires inside. All the forces on the rig are compression forces (hence the post below) not a big issue IMHO. Stay away from JBW!!

I think even putting an aluminum 'collar' inside the mast fastened with some bolts should be more then adequate to keep the crack from spreading; make it 'high enough' past the pivot hole in the mast.
Keep us posted!

Andy Kohler

C25 #6012 TR WK
traditional layout

16ft Hobie Cat
23.5 Hunter

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 05:21:55

if you bolt on reinforcement, and dont weld it, make sure to drill a hole the top of the crack, that will help keep it from spreading.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 06:41:49

quote:
Originally posted by Good Times

All the forces on the rig are compression forces (hence the post below) not a big issue IMHO.

At rest, the rig is just placing a compression force on the base. Under sail, there are additional lateral forces, where every contact point between the standing rigging, running rigging, the mast (being pressured by the boom and the sail), and the hull are heeling and driving the boat. Then there are the forces against the bolt as the mast is raised and lowered, possibly contacting the step during the process. (That's probably what caused the crack, but not necessarily the reported elongation of the hole.) This is why, IMHO, it's important to at least hear from a professional who has dealt with this before. If part of the base of the mast breaks off in a gust, the consequences could be life-threatening.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/27/2018 06:49:29

hbushey
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Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 07:25:08

I had to have the base of my mast welded because of a mistake make when raising/lowering the mast for the first time. The holes for the stepping bolt were badly damaged.

Located a mobile welder and asked him on the phone if he knew how to weld aluminum. He laughed and said, �Yeah, I can handle that.� Turned out the guy was certified to do welding on nuclear reactors and such. Brought his truck to the house, and I had the mast waiting on sawhorses. He had it repaired and reinforced in 45 minutes. I have no reservations about the long term strength and durability of the weld work.

Heather and Scott
�Respite�
1989 C-25 TR/WK

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 10:02:46

I'll just add that welding might be common resolution, in which case a rigger will tell you that, and will likely recommend a welder who is experienced with aluminum and with boat spars in particular.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 13:11:07

This is why I love to go to sailboat shows. If I have a question like this, I stop at a rigger's booth or at a booth that sells spars and ask the advice of experts how to fix it. No matter what needs repair, you can almost always find some vendor with an expert who can offer sound advice. If it's a winter show, like the Chicago Strictly Sail show, you can get the boat fixed before spring, without missing a day of sailing!

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

jerlim
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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 13:38:11

So maybe my imagination isn't working well at this moment - but I am having trouble visualizing the damage. Can you post a few photos to provide a clearer picture (NO PUN intended).

Jerry

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 14:31:11

Jerry, I believe he has a crack on one side of the mast that runs from the base of the mast up to the bolt hole.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Sailynn
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Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 15:17:17

I like the sleeve idea for reinforcement but put the sleeve in the interior of mast instead of exterior which might interfere with the mast plate. The sleeve should go from bottom of mast to above the bolt pivot hole and drill thru the old hole. This gives you a stronger base of mast and a new bolt hole which might be harder to elongate IMHO.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 17:25:19

hewebb has a SR mast for sale for $500. You think it would be hard to get your mast to the welding shop? Try shipping a mast from the DFW area!

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 18:29:13

Keep in mind he has a 89 model and like my 87 has a fixed boom. The pop top restraining hook, A down haul cleat and a track stopper are all below my boom and need to be put into the track from the bottom up when the mast is down. If you put a collar across the track, Well think about it. Internal collar? It would involve fabricating a replica of the mast shape just smaller that isn't a perfectly smooth oval. There is the bump out for the track to deal with. Then you would need a very tiny welder to crawl up into the mast to weld it in place. Bending aluminum is very tricky. It has to be bent with a sharp blow. If you try to bend it slowly it cracks. It's why it's an extrusion. Welding aluminum is an art that takes practice. My mechanic at work was an excellent welder and could weld aluminum but would only do it in the shop. Outdoors and the slightest breeze would screw it up.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 19:19:29

I think welding it alone would be sufficient, but, instead of collaring it, a welder could weld a "bandage" over the crack to reinforce it." There are as many ways of repairing it as the human mind can imagine. You could simply put a couple big hose clamps around it. That wouldn't be a very elegant repair, but it would probably work. If the rig is tuned properly, the mast is held nearly immobile and in column by the stays, and the forces on it are straight down onto the deck. You aren't going to sail the boat around Cape Horn, but even if you were, a bandage welded over the crack would probably leave the repair as strong as a new extrusion.

There are negatives to buying a brand new mast, or a used mast, or to virtually any remedy. The best remedy is the simplest, least expensive and most functional.

You're free to consult structural engineers, riggers, materials engineers and a host of experts if you want, or you can just fix the damn thing and go sailing.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 20:40:58

One could always rivet a repair piece over the crack. Done on airplanes all the time including wing spars. But... it has to be done properly!

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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329 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 20:45:41

That�s an odd place to have a crack just appear....can you identify the cause? Once repaired you don�t want the same issue to potential crack it again....

Mark-
'Impulse...�
1978 C25 #533 SR/DIN/FIN ~_/)~
Bakersfield, CA.

Lee Panza
Captain

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Response Posted - 09/29/2018 : 10:20:27

I�m going to delve into a lot more detail than most people will want to read, but if anyone in the future accesses this thread as they seek advice for a similar problem of their own, I�d like them to be able to understand what might have happened and what could be done about it. I didn't start out to write a documentary, but it just grew as I thought about it more and more. I'm recently retired, and this seems like a better use of my non-sailing time than watching TV or sitting in a bar. William (Bill?), most of this is obviously well below your own comprehension level, judging from your original post (OP), and I apologize for that.

At least several of the options laid out in this inquiry might not be advisable, especially if the boat is to be used in a salt water environment.

"2. Mount a SS strap across the crack..." I can attest from first-hand experience that this could be a serious mistake in the long run. I had mounted a pair of SS hounds units onto the mast (one was for my vang and the other was for a tackle system to draw the gooseneck fitting down), and this resulted in serious degradation of the aluminum under the straps. Salts collected there, both from the sea water and from the electrolytic reaction between the SS and the aluminum. I wound up with recesses in the aluminum behind the straps. I had used Tef-Gel on the screws when I mounted both of the hounds units, but I didn't place a barrier between the straps and the spar. The problem suddenly became evident when the vang ripped the one hounds unit partially off. The same process was taking place beneath the other one.

Here is a picture:

The cabin top is low enough that the bottom of the mast can receive occasional splashes of water (it gets splashed a lot where I sail), so creating a sizeable patch of contact between SS and aluminum here with a repair strap could be problematic. The contact areas between the sides of the tabernacle bracket and the spar are vertical, so they drain easily, and I think this may be why the same thing doesn't occur here (although I'm going to start watching for it). But a horizontal strap conforming to the side of the spar might produce the kind of damage that I encountered.

By the way, such a strap would have to extend part of the way around the curvature of the spar to allow the screw heads to clear the sides of the tabernacle, or it would have to be thick enough to countersink flat-heads. There isn't a lot of excess width inside that bracket for any kind of strap or external collar as some have suggested.

"3. Weld the crack..." While some have reported good results with welding, this is a debatable solution, particularly in a salty environment. As has been pointed out, the effect on the structural strength around the weld is arguably not a serious concern, but it would result in a substantial area of metal not protected by anodizing (the heat from the welding would damage the anodized surface some distance away from the weld itself). The unprotected aluminum in contact with the stainless steel tabernacle bracket could become problematic in the long run, even in a fresh water environment but especially if the boat lives in salt water.

"4. Weld a plate across the crack..." Again, welding without re-anodizing may not be a preferable solution.

"5. Cut off the bottom of the mast (and replace with a shim)" It's probably not necessary to shorten the mast. The capacity of the spar to support compressive loads should not be significantly compromised by the vertical crack described in the OP. The lateral forces on the mast base are largely constrained by the tabernacle bracket, and while the fore-and-aft component of those forces might be a concern this is just a fraction of the lateral load during sailing. The contact between the bracket and the sides of the spar - when the bolt is tight - should provide enough resistance that the bolt holes would not be further eroded. The structural weakness due to the crack might never become an issue if left alone, although it would be prudent to observe it from time to time to look for evidence that it has opened any. I'll present an alternate solution in a moment.

"6. JB Weld..." Would almost certainly not bond to the aluminum strongly enough to hold the two sides of the crack together to resist whatever force caused the spar to split in the first place.

It seems inconceivable that the lateral loads at the base of the mast just from sailing could be great enough to have caused the spar to split. As has been suggested, it seems far more likely that this might have resulted from the bolt not having been loosened or from the mast swinging to the side. There've been several mentions of the stresses imposed during this process (even during a relatively controlled lowering rather than a catastrophic failure at sea or in a yard).

When the mast is coming down or going up there should not be much stress on the spar as long as the bolt is allowed to rise in the tabernacle bracket slots (provided that the mast is not allowed to swing to the side). The load on the bolt does increase as the mast comes down, from zero when the mast is vertical to a maximum just before the mast comes to rest. The haul line over the gin pole or A-frame is under considerable tension, and the relatively low angle of that line develops a substantial horizontal component of force. However, the angle of the force applied to the bolt also changes as the mast rotates, such that at its maximum the force is essentially in line with the axis of the mast rather than transverse to it.

The most critical stage might be as the mast is just beginning its descent, when the bottom end has to slide across the base of the tabernacle bracket and the bolt has to rise in the slots. As the mast rotates down, the bottom of the spar tries to travel in an arc to the opposite direction with the pivot bolt at the center of this rotation. The distance from the pivot to the outer edge of the mast bottom is greater than the distance from the pivot to the middle of the bottom. Therefore, since the edge of the mast can't magically descend through the bottom of tabernacle bracket, the pivot point of that arc has to rise. This is why the tabernacle bracket has slots rather than simple holes, and it's also why it's necessary to loosen the upper shrouds before lowering the mast if they are left attached (to restrict the mast from swinging sideways as it comes down).

As the opposite side pivots away and upward, the side that the mast is being lowered toward is being compressed, and IF THE BOLT IS TIGHT this half of the bottom of the spar could experience considerable stress. I would generally expect the tabernacle bracket to pull up from the deck at some point, but from what I've read above evidently serious damage can be done to the mast if it�s held down securely. The OP mentioned a picture of a mast that essentially blew-out the front of its base; if that mast had been lowered toward the bow without loosening the pivot bolt I can see this as a possibility. Maybe this one being discussed here cracked just before the tabernacle bracket pulled up.

Here's a diagram, based on the tabernacle bracket on my boat (I'm assuming it's factory original, but I really don't know). I haven't loaded this sketch with dimensions, but it is as accurate as I was able to measure on the boat. The illustration to the left represents the relationships between the mast and the tabernacle bracket when the mast is up. The other illustration shows the relationships when the mast has come down to 46 degrees from vertical, at which point the trailing edge of the bottom of the spar is directly below the pivot and the bolt has risen to the highest point in its travel.

I drew this sketch to see whether there might be room to drill a higher pair of holes. The pivot bolt is drawn at the highest point that would not exceed the height of the slots in the bracket. This is centered just less than 2-1/4" above the base. It rises just less than 1" when the mast is about 45 degrees from vertical. If the existing holes in the OP are about 2" up, there wouldn't be room above them for another pair of holes without another modification that I'll get into below.

Although the bolt has risen an inch, it does not mean that the upper shrouds needed to be backed-off that far. Because they are attached at the deck, well below the pivot axis at the tabernacle bracket, the distance from the mast head to the chainplate connection begins to shorten as the mast lays down, and the shrouds begin to slacken. During the initial 15 degrees of rotation, however, the pivot bolt rises at a faster rate than the shrouds slacken, which is why the shroud turnbuckles need to be backed-off before lowering the mast.

A different approach to dealing with this would be to grind-off half of the bottom of the mast in an arc centered at the pivot bolt. Here's an illustration of what I mean:

This radical modification will horrify some people on an intuitive level, but it's really not as crazy as it might seem at first.

It leaves half of the spar in contact with the tabernacle base. The parameters of that spar (overall dimensions and extrusion thickness) should have been based on resisting the anticipated twisting, bending, and buckling loads along its unsupported lengths. The capacity of that extrusion for compressive end loading should be far greater than necessary - so much so that I haven't felt it necessary to run the numbers, although I'd be glad to hear from someone else on this. Even with half of it gone there should be more than enough material left to support any compressive end-loading it could ever encounter. Keep in mind that most of the counter-force to the compression at the base of the mast, aside from the relatively minor weight of the mast, boom, and mainsail, is the tension in the slender stainless steel cables attached to it.

In practice, if at least the lower portion of the mast is canted forward, most of the load is on the forward portion of the base anyway. Before I replaced my original blown-out main I had induced a good 4� or more of forward bow in my mast to help flatten the old sail. Most of the vertical load at the base of the spar was imposed on its forward portion. Even now, with a relatively new main, I keep it canted slightly forward (and I still get more weather helm than I�d like).

A few years ago I did radius the bottom of my mast (the aft half, since I drop my mast toward the stern). Although I didn�t take off enough to entirely eliminate the pivot rise (I still have to back-off the upper shrouds turnbuckles a few turns), dropping the mast requires far less slack than prior to this modification. I haven't measured how much the pivot bolt rises as the mast comes down, but it can't be more than a small fraction of an inch. By the way, sailing on San Francisco Bay in the summertime I commonly encounter in winds in the mid-20s and gusting into the 30s, and I've seen no indication of excessive wear or deformation in the bottom of my mast, although there has already been a little corrosion at the exposed edges I created.

The important point, for this discussion, is that this modification of the spar allows for a much higher pivot (since it does not have to rise in the slots as the mast is lowered or raised).

Radiusing the bottom end of the spar under discussion here, rather than trimming it square, and drilling a new pair of holes a little more than 3" above the bottom, would substantially reduce the stress on that crack during lowering (or raising) the mast, and with the existing hole at the top of the crack this would reduce the stress on it while under sail to negligible.

And, Bill, you mentioned that the existing bolt hole is around a couple of inches up, so cutting the spar off at the top of that hole would require a very substantial �shim� (unless you shorten all of the standing rigging cables). The height of this spacer block might begin to approach its width, so the lateral forces begin to produce a "tipping-over" effect (engineers call this a moment). The screws holding it all down will be subject to uplift forces, and they may want to pull out. I wouldn't want to guess at what point this becomes a serious concern, but it should be kept in mind.

Since you're already leaning toward surgery, consider what I've described. Maybe a short truncation, with a low-rise shim, could be combined with a radius cut, leaving most of the cracked portion in place and not having to replace the standing rigging again.

I'm discovering that retirement is actually pretty amazing; I've got time for silly nonsense like writing this. Now, if the air outside my marina would start moving any faster than 3 kn, I'd really rather go sailing.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.