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Mast raising & lowering

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hbushey
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/03/2018 : 21:09:53

We are new owners of a 1989 Catalina 25 TR. We just tried to raise/lower our mast using an A frame made by the PO. I won�t get into details, but this experience was UGLY

. I know that this process has been hammered out in other threads and I have read them, but I still have questions.

If DavyJ is still on the forum, or anyone else that has an A frame modeled after him, can you give instruction and maybe a picture of where you place the tangs to attach the lower forward shrouds to?

What is everyone using for the connection from the mast to the A frame? The forestay? If you have a roller Furler do you still use the forestay?

Thank you for any help

Heather and Scott
�Respite�
1989 C-25 TR/WK

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2018 : 21:50:40

You can drop the mast forward as well without needing any additional hardware. See thread below.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30694&SearchTerms=mast,step

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 07:05:01

quote:
where you place the tangs to attach the lower forward shrouds to?

They don't have to be reattached to the A frame. you can just leave them loose on the deck if you want to. Davy reattaches them to the A frame I guess to make it neat and so they don't fall over the side.

quote:
What is everyone using for the connection from the mast to the A frame? The forestay? If you have a roller Furler do you still use the forestay?

I use the forestay that has a roller furler on it. It keeps the forestay/furler under tension keeping it from sagging that could damage it. It is metal sections. After the mast is down I unhook it and tie it in multiple spots to the mast.
I use the mainsheet between the A frame and the deck. My A frame is made from 2x4s but if yours is metal they work the same. I have two SS tangs on the A Frame. One gets hooked to the forestay/furler and the other tang hooks to the mainsheet. This is how I do it but there are other variations. What got ugly??

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 02/04/2018 07:28:56

hbushey
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 08:24:46

quote:
Originally posted by islander

quote:
where you place the tangs to attach the lower forward shrouds to?

They don't have to be reattached to the A frame. you can just leave them loose on the deck if you want to. Davy reattaches them to the A frame I guess to make it neat and so they don't fall over the side.

quote:
What is everyone using for the connection from the mast to the A frame? The forestay? If you have a roller Furler do you still use the forestay?

I use the forestay that has a roller furler on it. It keeps the forestay/furler under tension keeping it from sagging that could damage it. It is metal sections. After the mast is down I unhook it and tie it in multiple spots to the mast.
I use the mainsheet between the A frame and the deck. My A frame is made from 2x4s but if yours is metal they work the same. I have two SS tangs on the A Frame. One gets hooked to the forestay/furler and the other tang hooks to the mainsheet. This is how I do it but there are other variations. What got ugly??

Thank you for the response. The mast leaned heavily to port on the way up, I caught it and guided it up. On the way down...gravity works better then intended at times. The shrouds were loosened too much and we lost our mast to port. Luckily replacement of the stepping plate is the worst of it and there was no gel coat damage. Then there is the chore of getting the mast back up on the boat as bringing it all the way to the ground was better then trying to get it back up.

We discovered the rigging is not in as good of shape as we thought. We were not able to view the boat with the mast up. The turnbuckles were difficult to manipulate do to corrosion and some were bent which complicated our efforts. I believe new standing and running rigging is in order. The costs are already adding up...Sigh

After reading the previous posts I noted others have had the same problem with the swaying mast. It seemed the consensus was that the lower forward shrouds were key to preventing this. We figured since guiding it failed for us, securing them like DavyJ is the best option...his videos make it look so easy.

I watched his video frame by frame and it looks like the tangs he is referencing are the same ones used to hold the shrouds on the mast (the same one you used on the top of your frame) and are secured through the bottom of the A frame. I just want to make sure we have everything set up correctly before attempting this endeavor again. I tried emailing him directly but I�m not sure he monitors this forum anymore.

Heather and Scott
�Respite�
1989 C-25 TR/WK

hbushey
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 08:28:47

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

You can drop the mast forward as well without needing any additional hardware. See thread below.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30694&SearchTerms=mast,step

Thank you for the reply. That looks really cool too! I think we are going to stick with lowering it back without the boom as we will only be lowering for towing...hopefully only once a year and everything is already set up for this configuration.

Heather and Scott
�Respite�
1989 C-25 TR/WK

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 08:31:10

The tangs are connected to the end of the a-frame that you would connect to the forward lower shroud chain plate.

My photos of the parts are now being held ransom by Photobucket.

You can see the connections in this video, the tangs are using the same pivot bolt as the a-frame, pause it at 2:33 to see the tangs connected to the a-frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsLxujYRsMQ

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 08:41:07

quote:
What is everyone using for the connection from the mast to the A frame? The forestay? If you have a roller Furler do you still use the forestay?

You don't mention what type of furler you have. A CDI is best for this, I don't have experience with others, but I know others here have lowered/raised the mast with other types.

With the CDI, I used the forestay to attach to the a-frame.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

hbushey
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 08:57:53

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

quote:
What is everyone using for the connection from the mast to the A frame? The forestay? If you have a roller Furler do you still use the forestay?

You don't mention what type of furler you have. A CDI is best for this, I don't have experience with others, but I know others here have lowered/raised the mast with other types.

With the CDI, I used the forestay to attach to the a-frame.

Thank you so much for the response DavyJ! We do have a CDI Furler. I saw in another post you mentioned measurements of 5� for the tang, I think this is were I got confused. Is that the length of the tang? We plan to use your calculations for loosening the shrouds so we want it connected in the right spot.. We loosened them too much with our last attempt and met with catastrophe.

The P.O. was unclear in which part to attach to the A frame. We initially tried with the main and then the jib halyard and the mast didn�t move. There seemed to be too much tension on the ropes so we discarded that idea and ended up using the Furler. We were successful with that but the mast swayed heavily to port, that is why we want to employ the design of your A frame.

Thanks!

Heather and Scott
�Respite�
1989 C-25 TR/WK

Edited by - hbushey on 02/04/2018 09:02:13

C25BC
Navigator

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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 08:58:03

I used the jib halyard and A frame on instruction from the po , will attach the forestay furler drum next time ,sounds easier and will save dealing with furler.I was used to raising the mast on our C22 and had a few tense moments with the bigger mast . The self tailing winch helped as well .

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 09:05:24

quote:
I saw in another post you mentioned measurements of 5� for the tang, I think this is were I got confused. Is that the length of the tang?

If I remember correctly, that is the distance between centerline of the holes on the tang not the actual length of the tang. I'll see if I can dig up that thread.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 10:12:35

Here is the text from that thread:

Short tube that stands on chainplate 3" tall

5/16"x1" Bolt, 5/16" Nut with nylon insert.

1 thick washer in between frame and stand up tube. 1 thick washer between tang and nut. 1 thin washer under bolt head.

The holes on tang are spaced 5" apart center to center. This allows shrouds enough slack as mast comes down/up. I loosen shrouds ten turns.

The additional clevis pin is the same diameter as regular clevis pin, just longer with multiple holes. I have not been able to locate one of these in SS, so I buy steel and when they start to look nasty I replace with a new one.

One other thing, after I flattened the stand up tube where it connects to a-frame leg, I had to squeeze the tube at the bottom to fit over the chainplate at the correct angle.

I have seen photos of someone else's design that just used the tubes in their round form. But for my needs, flattening them takes up less room.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 12:18:40

I would also add that the boat has to be level port to starboard. Eyeballing it is not a good idea. Use a level across the cockpit seats. A few degrees off that you might not see with your eyes will have the mast falling off to one side. Also not a good idea to do this on a windy day. Having a few friends on each side of the mast to guide it is also a good idea.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 13:49:41

quote:
A few degrees off that you might not see with your eyes will have the mast falling off to one side.

This is the exact reason for the tangs and attaching the forward lower shrouds to the base of the a-frame. It prevents the mast from moving more than a few degrees to each side.

In this video lowering the mast while motoring down the canal. If you watch the forward lower shrouds, you will see them tighten up as the mast moves from side to side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwrmxKPdaY4

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - Davy J on 02/04/2018 13:56:58

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 15:51:43

Well Davy you convinced me. I never had a problem without attaching the shrouds but I do see how they would stabilize the mast. I'm going to add some eye bolts to my frame to attach them to.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2018 : 16:45:45

I just attach a 1/4" line to each upper and put a little tension on for the bottom 45�. Its really handy in a crosswind and guiding onto the crutch roller.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2018 : 20:21:24

Here's a drawing of the setup in the attached link. Scroll down to see it and the mast support. http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/bearsad1.asp Only difference is you add the tangs mentioned above to the top of the flattened pipes.

I built my A-frame just like Davy J's. The tangs are attached to the top end of the flattened pipe that goes over the chain plates. If I remember correctly the lower forwards's are then attached to the top end of the tangs. Loosen the uppers as Davy J mentioned.

As for loosening the uppers... the bottom of the mast is square so as the mast starts to come down it lifts up until you get past the "hump". The idea is you only want to loosen the uppers enough for the mast to be able to rise up and over the "hump" as it starts down. The farther down it comes the looser the uppers become but still enough from going over the side. If you have even 1 person helping they can gently pull the uppers together as they get looser or better yet they can grab the mast and guide it down.

You will also want to have a mast support that you can lower the mast into as it comes down.

Tip: Once you get the mast over the "hump" lower it quickly and guide into the mast support. Within reason, the quicker you lower it the less time the wind or the boat rocking will have to move the mast around. Shouldn't take more than 15 seconds to lower it once you get it over the "hump".

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 02/06/2018 20:36:28

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2018 : 18:41:41

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE never use wood for a a-frame. I have seen 3 wooden a-frames shatter from stress (not weight)as the rig presses down during raising. Pipe is so much more sturdier and there is not that big of difference in cost. We use our jib halyard and strap from trailer winch attached to a-frame to raise mast up with or without roller furler.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2018 : 18:48:20

The key to not bending your bottom t-bolt on the upper shrouds is; loosen the upper turnbuckle five turns before raising mast. When up tighten those turnbuckles five turns. Also mast will come down easier doing the same thing. We use left and right hand nuts to make loosening and tightening faster and easier.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2018 : 18:54:21

I like that wood will flex and give a visual indication that it is heavily stressed before breaking and will continue with wood. My current one is about 10 years old and will be retired this year. Different comforts for different folks.
edit:
Incidentally, I also join the legs at the top with a sturdy strap hinge instead of a loose bolt. It makes it easier to handle for me and seems somewhat more stable.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 02/08/2018 19:05:08

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2018 : 19:00:48

quote:
Originally posted by Sailynn

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE never use wood for a a-frame. I have seen 3 wooden a-frames shatter from stress (not weight)as the rig presses down during raising. Pipe is so much more sturdier and there is not that big of difference in cost. We use our jib halyard and strap from trailer winch attached to a-frame to raise mast up with or without roller furler.

When building your metal A-Frame be sure you use 3/4" or 1" EMT conduit (can't remember which) that electricians use when wiring buildings, not lite weight steel tubing.

You can get the EMT conduit at Home Depot or Lowes in the electrical section.

3/4" EMT Conduit
https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-EMT-Conduit-101550/100400406

1" EMT Conduit
https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-in-EMT-Conduit-101568/100400409

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 02/08/2018 19:08:07

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2018 : 20:54:25

i just watched Davy J reference video. on lowering mast underway. If you check your trailer sailing furler directions, especially CDI the directions specifically say "DO NOT use your furler to raise or lower your mast. In the video it appears the furler is being used, or am I missing something.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2018 : 07:02:26

Hmmm, I have a Hood furler on Passage and I use the same setup as Islander. I don't attach the furler to the apex of the A-frame, I attach it to the bottom end of the forestay (which is really really close to the furler roller) instead. This does not put any strain on the furler body or spindle itself, instead all the tension force is on the forestay (which is its main job as standing rigging).
I too use eight-foot pine 2X4s but I'm out east. It might be that folks in dryer climates like L Tahoe may have experienced lumber to dry out causing it to shatter more so than folks in wetter climates. It also pays to use clear lumber with few knots. Metal pipes are fine but tape up the ends to prevent them from scratching your decks.
I'm dropping my mast again this spring because the cormorants busted off my windvane one more time. I wish I could get an electric fence charger gizmo for the mast top! That'd fix em.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2018 : 07:14:43

Lynn, It attaches to the forestay that runs up the center of the furler. There is no tension on the furler, Only the forstay.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

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