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C25 Tall rig to standard conversion

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LakeFall
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/14/2017 : 17:59:28

I found a boat I like but its a tall rig- which I'm not crazy about because I plan to trailer and cruise. If I were able to find the mast, stays, and sails from a standard rig, could I convert it over? What else would be different?

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2017 : 18:08:35

The tall rig's mast is 2 feet longer.
The boom is the same length.
Is it worth the effort, maybe issues and expanse?
Maybe it would be wise to try it first and if it's a big issue then do the conversion.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2017 : 18:37:24

My C25 had a tall rig and it outperformed the standard rig until it was time to reef. The tall rig needs to be reefed a bit sooner than the standard rig, and as windspeed increases from there, the tall rig's weight aloft detracted from it's performance. In the moderate winds that you'll be sailing in most of the time, you'll love the tall rig's additional sail area, speed and pointing ability.

Also, the boom is one foot lower than the standard rig boom. Many owners have raised their boom by either taking in a reef or by using a Capri 25 mainsail on their C25, which raises the boom one foot.

I don't understand why trailering or cruising would make the tall rig particularly difficult. The tall mast is heavier to raise, but you'll need to use an a-frame to raise it in either case, and it won't be more difficult with an a-frame.

I suggest you keep the tall rig and use a Capri 25 or similar mainsail on it. I don't think it would be worth the effort and expense to swap out the rig.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/14/2017 18:40:56

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2017 : 21:07:38

quote:
Originally posted by LakeFall

...What else would be different?

I recall seeing that the tall mast is a different, heavier extrusion--some evidence being that the mast step and mast-head casting sold by Catalina Direct are different. So you might need to install a new step for the SR mast. That's probably it.

As Steve points out, the TR boom is a foot lower. This creates a a bit of a challenge for installing a bimini, and the boom tends to be at about ear level when you're standing at the helm--not good for unexpected jibes. If "yours" has a sliding gooseneck, using a shorter sail is a simple solution as long as you keep it below the opening in the slot. If the gooseneck is fixed (I think this started around 1987?), you'd have to re-mount it.

If the boat is a good buy, I'd put up with the TR for one season and weigh my options, possibly for the next. If you could find a SR mast, then you could get a new set of standing rigging (maybe a good thing anyway) and a new step from Catalina Direct, a new or used sail, and you're set.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

LakeFall
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2017 : 05:41:20

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

My C25 had a tall rig and it outperformed the standard rig until it was time to reef. The tall rig needs to be reefed a bit sooner than the standard rig, and as windspeed increases from there, the tall rig's weight aloft detracted from it's performance. In the moderate winds that you'll be sailing in most of the time, you'll love the tall rig's additional sail area, speed and pointing ability.

Also, the boom is one foot lower than the standard rig boom. Many owners have raised their boom by either taking in a reef or by using a Capri 25 mainsail on their C25, which raises the boom one foot.

I don't understand why trailering or cruising would make the tall rig particularly difficult. The tall mast is heavier to raise, but you'll need to use an a-frame to raise it in either case, and it won't be more difficult with an a-frame.

I suggest you keep the tall rig and use a Capri 25 or similar mainsail on it. I don't think it would be worth the effort and expense to swap out the rig.

Interesting, so a standard Capri main will fit on a C25 tall rig with the boom raised 1'? Has anyone ever done this before? My biggest concern with the tall rig is getting knocked out. I'm 6'1".

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2017 : 05:59:14

Getting bonked by the boom is not a matter of if, but of when. Make sure to wear a life jacket and have good lifelines, especially during early spring and late fall.
My question is more about the keel. A fin keel at about 4 feet makes trailering quite challenging - I.e.: finding a deep enough boat ramp. Swing keel makes trailering a lot easier, but then you've got another few maintenance issues. A winged keel is the best of both.
Which type does this boat have?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2017 : 08:37:11

quote:
Originally posted by LakeFall

...My biggest concern with the tall rig is getting knocked out. I'm 6'1".

Then it might just hit you in the neck instead of the ear. But even with the SR, you'll want to keep your eyes open. The end-boom main-sheet is another hazard. I often thought about converting to mid-boom sheeting with a traveler against the cabin bulkhead. It would have opened up the cockpit somewhat. (One could keep the original transom traveler and boom-end tang in case they wanted to be class-legal in a race.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/15/2017 08:45:39

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2017 : 10:16:11

I crew on many sailboats up to 45' and don't think I have ever sailed on a boat with a boom that's so high that crew didn't have to keep their heads down when tacking or gybing. I have seen a few, in the 70-100' range, but not many. If the boom is so high that it clears a 6'1" person, then it starts to become a problem when you want to furl or cover the mainsail. You can't reach it. You need a special type of flaking and covering system.

Realistically, a sailor just needs to learn how low he needs to duck to clear his boom, and to be vigilant of a possible gybe when sailing downwind.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2017 : 11:43:07

IMHO -- In my dozen years sailing a TR I have NEVER had the boom whack my head -- or any of my passengers. I think the concerns about the boom being lower are much exaggerated. On most sailboats -- and any sailboat of our era -- you need to be mindful of the boom during a gibe or when tacking; thats part of sailing. Equally, I have seen 25 TR configurations with bimini's -- which just takes some thinking through and planning if so desired. The real issue is where will you be sailing and the wind conditions there. If you will be sailing where the wind is light, I would stay with the TR. If you will be sailing on waters that are known for heavier wind (Like Buzzards Bay MA) I would consider the SR. The difference in raising and lowering one mast vs the other will be insignificant.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

LakeFall
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2017 : 13:50:02

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

Getting bonked by the boom is not a matter of if, but of when. Make sure to wear a life jacket and have good lifelines, especially during early spring and late fall.
My question is more about the keel. A fin keel at about 4 feet makes trailering quite challenging - I.e.: finding a deep enough boat ramp. Swing keel makes trailering a lot easier, but then you've got another few maintenance issues. A winged keel is the best of both.
Which type does this boat have?

Still looking but definitely a swing keel. Finding one where you get the right answer from "what made you replace the keel cable?" has been difficult and I've seen my share of "it cracked the hull but I patched it back up with fiberglas".

Edited by - LakeFall on 10/15/2017 13:51:33

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2017 : 15:28:20

Right, a professional quality evaluation and repair is the only reasonable response if the keel has dropped. It only happens with a lack of maintenance, and that lack can extend to other areas. I also heard that the tall rig was a heavier extrusion, but I later read a detailed description that said it was not. I don't remember where I came across it, but it convinced me. But as noted, a few pounds makes negligible difference when raising a 30ish foot long stick.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2017 : 16:23:59

Definitely don't rule out a wing keel. The draft is just a few inches greater than the fully-raised swinger, but the maintenance issues are gone--that's why Catalina brought it out and shortly afterward discontinued the swing. Then they took advantage of the lack of a keel trunk and lowered the cabin sole for more headroom, in 1989. I believe the wing was a factory option starting in 1986-7 (?), but some earlier boats have them due to a retrofit kit Catalina offered for swing owners. It fit up inside the keel trunk, and wasn't cheap, but became somewhat popular among people whose boats had sunk. (A long-time member here converted after his sank twice.) The kit is no longer available to my knowledge... But any vintage C-25 with the wing is worth a hard look for a cruiser.

I have sailed in close proximity to an '89 wing, which seemed to point and perform well enough compared to the fin version I was on (not my own) that only a racer might be concerned with any difference. For cruising off a trailer, the C-25 wing might be the best combination made by anyone. Just be aware, with any C-25, that it isn't a "trailer sailer" for day sails off and on the trailer--it's a "transportable cruiser" that needs a fairly serious tow vehicle, doesn't need a wide load permit, and can be launched on a ramp. In that niche, it's as good as they get.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/15/2017 19:55:25

LakeFall
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2017 : 07:11:23

Thank you everyone for all the info and advice. My "plan" is to be able to sail a small inland lake near home, sail the Chesapeake, and maybe even NC coast. A trailerable boat is the only way I can do this and when its "home", I may rent a slip at the marina during the summer so I actually want to go use it. I have an 8000 lb tow limit on my Avalanche which I hope is enough.

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2017 : 13:00:30

I weigh a bit over 6K on the trailer

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

cat25
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2017 : 05:52:55

I have a Cat 25 tall rig. I put a one foot reef on my sail to raise the boom. This provides room for a dodger and Bimini. I did this at the end of the season so I had little time to enjoy the extra height in the cockpit. It is another answer to enjoy sailing the tall rig. I still have not removed the boom connection on the mast to move the boom up about one foot. That will happen next season. I purchased from Catalina Direct all the hardware for the connection of the boom to the mast. Thats an adjustable system connected to a cleat on the mast slot. Can't wait till next season to use all of it.

Ken
Chenango~
1990~TR~WK~C25~#6022
Candlewood Lake, Ct

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2017 : 13:19:13

I was able to use the bimini from our C22 on our C25 tall rig, just barely. We could not stand up under the bimini but it did provide needed shade for summer sailing. The bimini height measurement at purchase was 36", and because we planned to use it on either boat, I did not alter it in any way. It was mounted on the deck between the jib/genoa track and the cockpit coaming. If I were doing it again just for the C25, I would buy a bimini to mount on top of the coaming to leave room to walk around it to go forward, 36" height cut down probably to 32". At 6' length front-to-back it fit neatly between the vang and the mainsheet at the end of the boom.
Adding a reef to your main sail at 12" would bring the boom up to a standard boom normal height.
My boat had the sliding gooseneck, so adjusting the boom height was easy. More would be involved if you have a fixed boom.
The tall rig mast is a heavier extrusion, actually closer to the C27 mast extrusion.
You may have noticed two holes on the middle shroud deck fitting. My understanding is that the tall rig shrouds connect to the outside holes, the standard rig shrouds connect to the inside hole.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 10/29/2017 13:28:52

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2017 : 16:24:57

I'm not sure about the holes for different rigs. CD says that typically the inner hole is used just for better sheeting angle. They don't say anything about the outboard hole.
From CD

Four 3/8" mounting holes are provided, spaced at 4" intervals. Two 3/8" holes are provided at the top for the turnbuckle clevis pin. Typically the inboard hole is used to provide a slightly better angle for the jib sheet lead.

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