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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

New and Old Rudder side by side (photo test)

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dvdfishel
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/07/2017 : 14:00:49

David Fishel
#848 WB250 2005

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2017 : 16:58:14

Looking good... any improvements, findings or suggestions?

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

dvdfishel
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2017 : 17:26:40

It was a huge improvement. I am not sure what generation my old rudder was, Its a 2005.

Much less weather helm now. Less rudder force overall. Its easier for the autopilot to hold while sailing single handed in gusty conditions.

Rudder now holds at greater heeling angles and gives me more time to react to changing conditions without rounding up in every puff above 15 mph.

I can send the old rudder to anyone who needs it if they pay for shipping. Its in good shape with no physical damage

David Fishel
#848 WB250 2005

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2017 : 06:26:03

Nice looking rudder. Not surprised that it's easier to handle. What may be more difficult to ascertain is whether the new rudder has as much "bite" when steering in tight conditions. Since it's also a little longer than the original, what is its draft relative to your keel depth.
About selling your perfectly good old rudder, most C25/250 owners find in the spring that their rudder froze up in November and December and cracked along the seams. If you don't get any takers now, wait till next spring.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2017 : 18:07:29

Just curious: Did C25 rudders have the same balance problem as C250? Did Catalina come out with a redesigned rudder for the C25 at the same time?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2017 : 18:47:17

The truth is that C25s never really had a balance problem. Excess weather helm pressure on every boat in my experience can be corrected by good rig tuning. Tilting the mast slightly forward reduces tiller pressure. Tilting it aft increases it. It's that simple. Buying a "balanced rudder" reduces tiller pressure without correcting the underlying problem that caused it. By buying a balanced rudder, you could reduce tiller pressure without correcting the imbalance that caused it.

I can't speak to C250s specifically, but suspect that any imbalance could also be corrected by rig tuning. It's a little hard to believe that the Catalina 250 is an extremely rare boat that was so poorly designed that excess weather helm can't be tuned out of it, and that Catalina has never corrected it after all these years of production.

You can't blame Catalina and aftermarket rudder makers for being eager to sell new rudders to folks.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2017 : 19:50:34

Rounding up is not simply an imbalance problem (unless you tune for lee helm, and then God bless you). Apparently early on, Catalina didn't detect with the C-250 design that the broader beam astern would lift the rudder more under heel (especially with the WB model). The first picture above appears virtually identical to the balanced rudder Catalina introduced for the C-25 around 1988--a rudder I bought for my '85 very soon after buying the boat, and was very happy with. But the C-25 has less beam overall, and is much less beamy astern than the C-250. Catalina's various 250 rudder "generations" appeared to try to address this, and the other picture is apparently where they (or Ruddercraft) ended up, with a depth that maintains "bite" as the broader-beamed hull heels.

I maintain that if your boat doesn't round up (from modest weather helm) when the rudder loses its bite, you have a problem. Of course, if your boat constantly rounds up in a stiff breeze because the rudder loses bite, you also have a problem--but it's less critical--it's with the rudder itself.

I experienced the round-up issue big-time when I was considering boats back in the 1990s, and trialed an O'Day 19--a very beamy cuddy-cabin day-sailer that couldn't hold course to windward in a 12 knot breeze. Too much beam--not enough rudder depth--pure and simple. I didn't analyze how I could fix the problem--I just moved on.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/08/2017 19:53:25

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2017 : 22:37:26

David,

The rudder on the left is a third generation water-ballast rudder.
The water-ballast rudder is about five feet long, but the finn-keel rudder is about six feet long.
The shorter rudder matches the depth of the centerboard when on the trailer.
If you trailer with the new rudder, you will most likely need to remove it before going up the ramp.
I also see you have the wheel steering hardware. This makes removing the rudder more difficult while on the water.

I agree the shorter rudder isn't the best.
I changed mine to a second generation kick-up rudder (bought it here on the Swap Meet).
My new rudder has the deeper draft, yet can be raised while on the trailer.

Where did you buy your rudder and can you tell us the details?

Russ Johnson
2004 C250WB Hull 793

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 10/08/2017 22:41:51

dvdfishel
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2017 : 14:03:40

Hi Russ,

I got the rudder at Rudder Craft

I can definitely heel more now than before and sail through the puffs that would cause a round up before. I am also getting better at sheeting out in time to save a roundup.

I did tune the mast. When I got the boat it had a 24" rake and after reading up on this topic on this forum I corrected this. I am also am sailing with the swing keel part way up and reefing more often now.

I have only been sailing a couple of months and I have never sailed another boat so I cannot separate the boats weaknesses from my own.
I did log almost 50 miles last week and looking forward to our windy winter season.

I also ordered a 135% head sail to replace the worn 110% I have. My boat sails great with just the head sail alone so I think the larger size will may be more competitive in the weekly rum races here and i can always roll it up if it gets to be a handful.

David Fishel
#848 WB250 2005

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.