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DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/03/2017 : 05:34:42

So we've decided to switch over to headsail roller furling from our current hank-on setup and are planning to see what kind of deal we can get at the Annapolis Boat Show this weekend. We're most likely going to stick with the time tested CDI FF4 and would like to get the ball bearing option. We are hoping there are vendors that can package a deal with the sail included. I've gone to a number of places online to create a pricing comparison list so I can see if I can do better at the show. I don't need the whole furler kit just the furler itself as I already have fairleads and everything I need setup. I'm still not sure If I want to go to a 150% or stick with the 135% like I have now. To be honest the 135% has been great for us.

I'm between CD and Sail Warehouse currently for their pricing and quality but am open to others. I want to talk to Bacon when I am there because they did me well last time with my mainsail and I like working with them. Sailwarehouse and Catalina direct are essentially the same except CD's includes sale pricing and Sail Warehouse offers a package. Only thing with CD is a number of things are options and bump the price up for things like foam luff, draft stripes and sunbrella uv covers.

thesailwarehouse.com
FF4 w/BB Upgrade= $810
Offshore 135% w/foam luff,sunbrella uv cover, 6.0oz=$1,195
Package including both=$1,805($200 savings)

Catalinadirect.com
FF4 w/BB Upgrade= $882
Ullman Offshore 135% w/foam luff,uv dacron cover (sunbrella optional), 6.4oz=$1,138 (includes 12.5% sale discount)
Package including both=$2,020

Shipping will obviously be another element that will add to the price so knocking that off could help.

There are a couple of questions/comments I am looking for some feedback on:
- The CDI is able to reef correct?
- Which side does the UV cover need to be on for the CDI FF4?
- Do I need a new headstay in order to install the CDI FF4?
- Is a 135 or 150 preferable? Would still like to have visibility.
- Does anyone have a tell-tale window on their sail?
- Are there any other things I may be overlooking for my requirements? For the sail I am looking for this: 6+oz dacron, foam luff, leech and foot lines, draft stripes, tell-tales, sunbrella uv cover.

I think if I can get all my requirements and still be under $2k I would be super happy so that's really my goal.

Also, I will be selling some nice hank-on headsails now that I am converting so check out the swap meet post.

Thanks,
Rob

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Bladeswell
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2017 : 08:16:06

Hi Rob,

I just ordered a new 135% furling head sail from National Sails. (Rolly Tasker Sails). I thought I had remembered you saying that you had bought from them before in another post and were happy with them. Maybe I am mistaken. Anyway, they sell a complete new CDI furler system that includes a new 150% head sail for $1500.00. Now that is before any add ons such as foam luff, but you don't pay extra for the UV cover. I am betting you can call them and work out a similar deal that would include a 135% instead of the 150%. I ordered foam luff with mine also and it was $120.00 more. So 135% and foam luff with shipping from Fl. to Ca. came to $1008. and change. 3-4 weeks delivery. I'm sorry, I don't know what modle of CDI they are supplying in this deal. Hope this was helpful. Best of luck.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2017 : 10:08:32

Back Again,

I just went and checked. You made me curious. It is the CDI FF4 modle furler in the package from National.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

DavidBuoy
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2017 : 11:35:23

quote:
Originally posted by Bladeswell

Back Again,

I just went and checked. You made me curious. It is the CDI FF4 modle furler in the package from National.

Bladeswell

I really like the 135% i got from them but I am planning to get a heavier weight dacron because I am planning on this being the last headsail I buy and want the durability of the extra strength. With the package they offer, buy the time you add foam luff, draft stripes, the ball bearing furler option, opt for a heavier weight you are at or over the $2000 mark I am shooting for.

Like I've noted I've been super happy with the 135% hank-on I got from them and it's given me zero grief especially with their pricing, but I did purchase it knowing that I was going to change to roller furling at some point. I'm trying to work some deals on my new setup (because why not), but I'm willing to spend the coin for a high-end(ish) sail. I am not however planning to have a custom sail cut by North or someone because; 1)I don't race and, 2)My quotes from the last boat show "sale" were between $2000-$3500 for one sail.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Bladeswell
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2017 : 13:54:51

Hi Again,

Yeah, I know what you mean. A local sail maker near me quated $2500- $3500 for a 135% furler and six months wait time. And that was for the sail alone, no furler included. Best of luck with your choice.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2017 : 15:47:40

I believe you will be much happier with a roller 135, speaking as someone with a roller 150. `The previous owner had Pearl"s 150 cut from heavier cloth. It is pretty poor in light air, but a 135 might be tolerable.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2017 : 18:31:58

If you're looking to save money, have you considered converting your hank on sail to roller furling ?

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

DavidBuoy
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2017 : 21:09:12

quote:
Originally posted by SKS

If you're looking to save money, have you considered converting your hank on sail to roller furling ?

So like I said above, my main goal is not to save money or I would get rid of the boat. I'm working deals/sales to get the best value for my money. I am looking for a high quality sail that will last 10+ years and meet my other requirements. I would have my current sail cut and modified if saving money was my primary objective. My current sail is great but I'd rather have something designed for its use and application. I've replaced practically everything on my boat from top to bottom and this is my last big purchase (besides normal maintenance) so I want it to be quality.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2017 : 05:44:23

When you say you are looking for a high quality sail that will last 10 years.....Well, you really do not have much to go on with the sail details you provided other than the weight of the sail and that can be accomplished by resin vs thread count. Challenge sailcloth publishes their thread count for Dacron sails on the web and it is listed for each grade Dacron sail they sell as well as the stretch factor based on wind/force against the sail. Unless you know similar info regarding the 2 sail quotes you received, it is really hard to say which sail will hold up better against stretching over the years. The 2 quotes you received are not all that far apart and so if you cannot get the specifics regarding nailing down the sail properties, then you are going to have to base your selection on other factors like ....Many swear by Ullman Sails or which vendor as a better reputation or going with your gut. With few exceptions, most of those that comment on the Forum seem to be happy with whatever they bought.....so that does not really help in making your decision....unless you get influenced by someone posting an overwhelmingly positive review.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2017 : 06:58:41

I've been warned that the UV strip on a furling sail stretches less than the sailcloth itself, so for longevity of shape, it's worthwhile to invest in low-stretch cloth.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

DavidBuoy
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2017 : 08:47:53

So ran across an interesting craigslist find. Anyone see why this would work for the C25?

https://annapolis.craigslist.org/bpo/d/cdi-flexible-jib-genoa-furler/6324561214.html

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2017 : 17:27:32

Hello Again,

It says the headstay is 36' and foil length of 34'. I don't remember if your boat is TR or SR but mine is a TR and I believe the headstay is 33'. I might be wrong. But I suppose that rig could be modified to fit your boat. I have no idea about the cost. I do know that I would not feel comfortable doing it myself. Good luck.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

DavidBuoy
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2017 : 20:47:26

Alrighty, got myself a gently used CDI FF6 w/ball bearings. Everything checked out and I went and bought it tonight. Super nice guy that just updated his rig. Will just need to cut the foil down and shorten the internal halyard as well as make sure my smaller turnbuckle will fit. May need a small amount of modification but thankfully I have some friends that are riggers that have offered some help. I'll do some test fits with the drum, then when I get my new sail in I'll take some more measurements before cutting the foil. The FF6 is essentially the same as the FF4 except a little bit larger and some other small features. I'll follow up with process once I get going. Here's a link showing the differences:

https://sbo.sailboatowners.com/downloads/Hunter_gen_66682892.pdf

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

JanS48
Navigator

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USA
141 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2017 : 22:46:11

Greetings
I did a similar mod a few years back, I purchased a used CDIFF4 from a 30 footer from a boat salvage yard ($ 250) - it had a one piece luff similar to the one in your CG list reference. I used the original head stay and just added a toggle for the furler mount. You need to be careful with the internal halyard and make sure it works smoothly. I ended up purchasing a new one which used a de-cored line for the part that goes thru the luf slit, that ended up working much better than the original which had a bonded plastic piece attached to the jib halyard. My install went very smooth, I'm using a CD 135 jib with some type of sun-protector strip. I bought that used for 350 from a member here a few years back. So my total cost after adding new lines was approx. 725. Three years and counting and very happy with the results so far.

Sounds like yours will be a better one with a new sail and the ball bearing model furler.

Good luck with everything
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

DavidBuoy
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2017 : 06:07:00

So I got my forestay measurement yesterday which is right about at factory (29'-10") plus a couple to few inches as i had the mast raked back a bit on the last tune to help give some weather-helm. I feel comfortable using the factory forestay measurement for cutting the furler foil which in the installation instructions (https://sbo.sailboatowners.com/downloads/Hunter_gen_66682892.pdf) they say to subtract 17" from from the pin to pin forestay measurement. I think that should leave me some safety room.

(Forestay) 29'-10"
(deduction) -17"
Furler Foil Length = 28'-5"

For the sail measurements, some of the foil will be down in the drum, some in the top fitting and then some length to the feeder so I would estimate another deduction of around 8" (I plan to lay the foil out tonight, fit everything together and get this actual measurement).

(Foil Length) 28'-5"
(deduction) -8"
Max. Luff Length = 27'-9"

This may be a little conservative, which i'd rather be, and it appears to be very close to what is recommended. The Sailmaker's instructions in the furler manual state "luff deduction is 22", which I have to assume is referring to the pin-to-pin forestay length (29'-10") and would end up at 28'-0" for the luff of the sail.

I think as long as I stay with the conservative measurement for the sail we should be good. A lot of sail makers have stock Catalina 25 sails so I'll plan to definitely confirm their dimensions before purchasing.

One strange thing that I felt was worth mentioning is that looking at some stock sail sizes (at least where I can find some) at thesailwarehouse.com, the 135% furling genoa that I would be looking at has a luff length of 28'-6" which would be larger than what I can fit. I'm not sure what they base their measurements on but that's why I'm planning to confirm all of this in person. It could be that since I am installing an upsized furler that has a larger drum it may not be able to fit as large a sail. Typically most install the CDI FF4 (34'5" max. headstay) however I am installing the CDI FF6 (40'5" max. headstay).

I am hoping to get the furler modified and installed, or a least mocked up, on the boat at the end of this season so that if anything isn't right I'll have time to right it before next season.

On a side note: We got in an amazing sail yesterday. Went out for a couple hours before a glorious sunset. Wind died so ended up slowly motoring around checking out the boat show by water with the amazing harvest moon above us!

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Edited by - DavidBuoy on 10/06/2017 06:07:46

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2017 : 07:52:48

Yep, My furling headsail is 27'8" ish so there is a problem with stock or off the shelf sails. I recommend installing the furler then measure from the drum attachment for the sail up to the fully hoisted swivel attachment point. That will give you your maximum luff length. I would then subtract a few inches from the max.just for some wiggle room.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2017 : 08:08:14

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Yep, My furling headsail is 27'8" ish so there is a problem with stock or off the shelf sails. I recommend installing the furler then measure from the drum attachment for the sail up to the fully hoisted swivel attachment point. That will give you your maximum luff length. I would then subtract a few inches from the max.just for some wiggle room.

Actually, that sail should fit for me as it's below the maximum and I have a couple to a few inches of wiggle room in my math already. Also wasn't accounting for some additional length that should be available as the tack attachment is actually lower than where I'm measuring to.

Where is your sail from and was it a stock size?

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2017 : 10:16:04

Sorry but it came with the boat so I didn't buy it. It says O'Neal that as far as I know was a Conn. sail maker that is no longer in business.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2017 : 15:01:27

Years ago I looked at National -- a 135 with UV and foam -- but instead went with Ullman/Ventura as the price was slightly more but about the same and Gary at Ullman/Ventura really knows Catalina's and provided great advise (I also bought my main from Ullman). Even shipping cross country it was a competitive and MUCH less than the local sail lofts. As far as furlers, a rigger I know told me the CDI furlers are less flexible when reefing the head sail and less desirable when racing or heavy weather sets in. He suggested I go with a Harken system. It cost more but has been bullet proof over the past ten years.

Much of this is based on where you are, purpose for the sail/furler, and of course budget. National/Rolly Tasker make a fine sail and CDI is omnipresent on Catalina's so focus on getting the right sail (150 v 135) for your sailing and local wind conditions.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 10/06/2017 15:04:21

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2017 : 19:36:07

Congrats. Im sure it will work out great you put a lot of heart into it.

quote:
Originally posted by JanS48

Greetings
I did a similar mod a few years back, I purchased a used CDIFF4 from a 30 footer from a boat salvage yard ($ 250) - it had a one piece luff similar to the one in your CG list reference. I used the original head stay and just added a toggle for the furler mount. You need to be careful with the internal halyard and make sure it works smoothly. I ended up purchasing a new one which used a de-cored line for the part that goes thru the luf slit, that ended up working much better than the original which had a bonded plastic piece attached to the jib halyard. My install went very smooth, I'm using a CD 135 jib with some type of sun-protector strip. I bought that used for 350 from a member here a few years back. So my total cost after adding new lines was approx. 725. Three years and counting and very happy with the results so far.

Sounds like yours will be a better one with a new sail and the ball bearing model furler.

Good luck with everything
Jan

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2017 : 04:56:49

So we had a great day at the show on Saturday with some beautiful weather! We ended up placing an order with Bacon Sails for a new 135% genoa. We had great experiences with them in the past as have friends of mine and new it was going to be our best bet to go with them. As soon as I get the furler installed and get the final measurements they'll start production of the sail. I thought this was a great idea to avoid any potential issues. With the 20% boat show special it ended up somewhere just shy of $900 with all of the bells and whistles we wanted. I think we're going to be super happy with the sail and I'm looking forward to working with Gary and the other guys at Bacon again!

Also ended up talking about our furler with the guy from CDI for sometime who was incredibly helpful. We talked all about the install I'm doing and he helped with some recommendations as well as offered to assist with some replacement parts and general info.

All in all it was a great day and also got to go on some pretty sweet boats also. We each got to pick 2 (i let her pick 3 though) to go and check out. I of course went for the rediculous ones. Went on the massive sport cat which was an Outremer 59. Went on the Club Swan 50 which I couldn't believe the quality of the interior for a racer. She stayed in the family and chose the Catalina 315 then the 385 which was a great practice as she realized that our next boat would need to be at least 35 feet long. She didn't like that you couldn't walk into the v-berth in the 315 as it is similar to how our 25's are with the cushion in the middle that can come out to stand.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2017 : 09:15:10

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBuoy

...I of course went for the rediculous ones... She stayed in the family and chose the Catalina 315 then the 385 which was a great practice as she realized that our next boat would need to be at least 35 feet long.

So she's leading the way... A good sign--keep that flame alive!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2017 : 04:38:51

So my furler is all cut and assembled and I am getting my final measurements to Bacon so that they can make the sail and I have one question for everyone...

Which side should the UV cover be on??

Furling line will be lead back on the port side of the boat but not sure that matters. I know the drum is designed to spin either direction but is there a standard or more common practice? In my head I pictured the line to enter the drum from port side of the boat to the right side of the drum and wrap around it counter clockwise. That would mean the sail would furl up clockwise and the UV cover should be on the port side. Let me know if there's something im missing.

Thanks!

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2017 : 06:18:30

My furling line is on the port side and the line winds onto the drum clockwise as the sail is let out. UV cover is on the starboard side.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2017 : 06:51:22

On most boats, the furling line is led aft along the portside, but I have seen it led along the starboard side. Regardless of which side of the boat the line is led, the furling drum will turn either clockwise or counter-clockwise when you unfurl the sail, depending on which way you feed the furling line onto the drum. As I recall, when I ordered a genoa from North, they asked which side I wanted the UV cover on. To answer their question, I had to think through the whole furling and unfurling process, and figure out whether my furling drum would turn clockwise or counter-clockwise, and which side of the sail would be on the outside of the roll when the sail was furled.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2017 : 07:09:20

I decided to go with the cover on the starboard side. That way the furling line will be further to the port side for more clearance with the anchor locker.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

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