Association Forum - Poor rigging job?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Poor rigging job?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

odonnellryanc
Navigator

Member Avatar

108 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/29/2017 : 08:00:52

Was quoted about ~$130/stay for my C25. Badly needed: the upper shrouds had a bent turnbuckle, the backstay was even more questionable and the closed turnbuckle was impossible to move.

I also had them replace the wire jib haylard while they were there.

Anyway, they put on 2 closed turnbuckles and a closed turnbuckle with a slot for inspection on the backstay.

I asked for the forestay to be replaced for that price, but they didn't end up doing it: said it was fine. I do doubt that, but ok.

Anyway... I have quite a few issues with this job:

1) closed turnbuckles
2) backstay seems like it is too long. Turnbuckle is tightened almost entirely down, probably another 1/4" IF that on each side left. No real tension here, gauge says ~5%
3) Looks like one of the new shroud turnbuckles is slightly bent, but hard to tell.
4) Not all the hardware is new. For example, they didn't replace the toggle on the backstay.

I would have done this myself with norse fittings, good learning experience anyway, but I figured this would work out even cheaper! But I guess "cheaper" and "boat" is an oxymoron ;)

What do you guys think my options are here? Get them to fix it?

Let it go, maybe put in my own adjustable backstay kit? I think that would be cool: I'd probably never use it, but seems like a way to "fix" it.

How worried should I be about the craftsmanship? This is a real shop, they make sails etc.. seem to have a good reputation, but maybe they just had a inexperienced rigger do this? Or..?

Edited by - odonnellryanc on 09/29/2017 08:08:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2017 : 10:21:29

Actually, it's good that they didn't replace the forestay, because the forestay has to be the correct length. It determines the range of adjustability of the mast rake (i.e. how much it leans aft).

I don't have the time to offer more detail now, but you need to find out the correct length for a backstay, and then measure yours to see if the yard made it to the correct length. If not, I'd tell them, and ask them to correct it.

It sounds like you have a split backstay. If so, you should also have a backstay adjuster that spans the two wires and, when adjusted, it effectively shortens the backstay. Does your boat have that? If it has a split backstay but no adjuster, then maybe the prior owner removed it. If so, it needs to be replaced. Somebody here probably has a photo of a backstay adjuster that you can compare to your backstay, to see if any hardware is missing.

If you wanted open turnbuckles, you needed to specify that in writing when you negotiated the terms. Closed turnbuckles were the original equipment and will work, probably for years, but open turnbuckles are better, and more expensive.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2017 : 19:27:43

Sounds more like miscommunication than a workmanship issue. I agree with what Steve said above, however, my experience with riggers has been that you can not assume anything! I typically discuss the work and the "what if's" so I better understand the options, their thinking process, and they understand my budget. The price you paid seems quite reasonable. I think I would meet with the person who did the work, express your concerns (note: not complaint but concern) listen and then decide what course of action you might take. FYI: every year I have issues with the rigger at the yard I keep my boat with over the winter. I remove the mast for the winter so I can inspect, but they seem to go rogue on me and want to do many things that are not needed while forgetting some of the basics. Again, communication is key.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

jduck00
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2017 : 08:32:02

quote:

Let it go, maybe put in my own adjustable backstay kit? I think that would be cool: I'd probably never use it, but seems like a way to "fix" it.

I put one on mine, but don't use it near as much as I though I would. Maybe its my sailing level or that I hardly ever sail in heavy winds, but it doesn't seem to do much for me.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

odonnellryanc
Navigator

Members Avatar

108 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2017 : 11:53:40

Thanks guys!

I do not have a split backstay. So the way to fix the length -- turnbuckle being bottomed out without much tension -- would be to put one on myself.

> If you wanted open turnbuckles, you needed to specify that in writing when you negotiated the terms.

Good point, and lesson learned!

I do not think I'd use the adjustable backstay either, but seems like an upgrade while fixing the tension problems.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2017 : 14:02:03

I believe the rigger who makes your stays and shrouds is responsible for them fitting correctly when installed (by you or by him). It appears that fit has not been achieved. (What if it turned out to be too long by a foot? How does that differ from too long by 3"?)

What is the current rake on your mast? (If your boat is in the water and you put a weight on hour main halyard shackle and lower it to just below the cabin top, how many inches behind the mast is does hang?) 5"-6" seems to be the "normal" rake to balance the rig for slight weather helm. If yours is considerably more raked than that, it says the forestay needs to be adjusted down, which could make your backstay more the correct length. Otherwise, I would say to the rigger that the new backstay does not match up to your rig as it should, and should be shorter. It's apparently longer than your old one, which he presumably used for a measurement. (That could have been due to the setting of the old turnbuckle when he measured it, or the new turnbuckle being a different length.)

BTW, If I were you, I'd try to negotiate changing from closed- to bronze open-body turnbuckles now while the ones you have are virtually new. I hate closed-body turnbuckles!

EDIT: Here's what Catalina Direct has to say about a pre-'87 SR backstay (bronze open-body included).

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2017 14:26:24

odonnellryanc
Navigator

Members Avatar

108 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2017 : 05:33:36

Thanks! I'll have to get the pictures up, but yeah: not really too happy with the work. Will talk to owner today.

No mast rake at all, actually, that I can tell.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2017 : 06:44:55

You want minimal mast rake. Too much weather helm creates drag and makes the helmsman arm weary from fighting against the tiller. I think you'll find 5-6" rake is too much, but you should sail the boat in about 10 kt winds and get a feel for the amount of weather helm.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2017 : 12:19:59

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...Too much weather helm creates drag and makes the helmsman arm weary from fighting against the tiller. I think you'll find 5-6" rake is too much...

I had a standard rig, "average" condition sails, 130% furling genny--I'm guessing each of those is a variable in the mast tuning equation. With about 5" (maybe 4") of rake, my helm was to weather just enough to have some feel and be safe. (I don't like dead-neutral.) Also, I added "power steering" (a balanced rudder). But I just brought that up as a possible factor in the backstay length issue.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/02/2017 12:23:27

HappyNow
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2017 : 22:26:49

Don't forget that the stays and shrouds will stretch after the first few weeks of use. If you only have 1/4" to tighten the back stays now, you won't be able to tighten them enough after they stretch.

Michael Levin
Sailin' on Sunshine
C250 #402 WK
Lake Tahoe

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.