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wierd weather helm

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dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/07/2017 : 07:14:58

when returning from all day sailing on the potomac saturday, i had a weird instance of extreme weather helm. when i got back to my creek, i hat to beat my way upwind. at one point the boat heeled 20 degrees in a gust and i had to hold the tiller full over to hold course. even then i had to ease everything in order to turn to leeward. i usually have almost no weather helm at that angle of heel, so this was surprising. When ever i pulled the helm to windward, there was a lot of disturbance in the water. helm to leeward and the water became smooth.

I was thinking i snagged a crab pot, as my speed seemed to be lowered a little bit; and i did sail through many of them. however i heaved-to and fished around with a boathook, but did not see anything. also my usual experience with crabpots is that they keep me from turning to windward, not the other way around.

any thoughts on why this happened? tomorrow i may go down and pull the rudder to see if anything is caught on the bottom.

Any idea

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2017 : 07:49:30

Excess weather helm is usually caused by an unbalanced sail plan, with too much power aft, in the mainsail. The excess pressure on the mainsail pushes the stern to leeward which, likewise pushes the bow to windward. If that's the cause, then you need to either increase the power in the jib, perhaps by rolling out more of it, or decrease the pressure on the mainsail, by easing the traveler down, or using the outhaul to flatten the mainsail, or even tucking in a reef.

If it isn't that, then you're probably right that something was snagged by your rudder.

Recently my friend's boat behaved exactly that same way, and we found that the rudder was separated from the rudder shaft. On your boat a damaged gudgeon or pintle might have caused that behavior, but the wobbly feel of the tiller would have probably caused you to notice that. Nevertheless, it's worth taking a look at the gudgeons and pintles too.

One other thought - It's unlikely but conceivable that a part of the rudder could have broken off below the waterline. If the rudder doesn't have enough surface area to hold the boat off the wind, then the boat will keep trying to head into the wind.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/07/2017 07:55:28

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2017 : 08:48:44

Since this was sudden and not the norm I would guess you snagged something on the rudder or keel. The keel you wouldn't be able to see. See if you can go in reverse for a while on your next sail. It might be gone after that. This after a visual inspection of everything you can see check's out ok.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2017 : 10:31:40

When the bottom half of my old rudder fell off, breaking at the lower pintle, I had "no helm", since the stub barely touched the water. You would certainly notice that!

And when I have snagged crab trap float lines on the rudder, the boat usually stops dead. The traps seem to function as excellent sea anchors!

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2017 : 15:58:19

well nothing on the rudder. it may have fallen off. im sailing tomorrow. we will see then.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2017 : 08:55:08

Also . . . . check to see if you have a crack, vertical or horizontal) in your rudder that makes it over flex when pressure is applied -- could be early warning of a more serious problem.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2017 : 04:05:43

I did find that the bolt holding my mast into the tabernacle had lost its nut and worked its way halfway out. the mast had twisted a slight amount and worked its way 1/4 inch forwards. the bolt could not come out all the way as it would hit the line organizer plate at the bottom of the mast. after fixing and sailing, all the weather helm was gone. I do find it hard to believe that 1/4 inch had such a drastic affect on boat balance. It still could have been two unrelated problems, and whatever I was dragging had fallen off during the few tide changes that had happened in the interim.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2017 : 10:37:22

Wow! That was a blessing in disguise. Had the bolt worked its way free you could have been dismasted! On those quiet windless days, I usually go around and check nuts, bolts, cutters and circlips. Some people swear by circlips, others swear at them!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2017 : 12:22:38

Honestly, you may be overthinking this. I sounds like you got nailed by a gust and were heeled over. Typically the stronger the pressure and more heel, the stronger the weather helm gets and if you were over that far the transom hung rudder could've easily been cavitating at that point. Everything you described in the OP sounds exactly what I would expect to experience when getting popped by a heavy breeze.

I remember earlier this year we were out for a sail having a great time and heading back towards our area from out in the bay. Typical wind day something around 9-10kts so we had full sail up on a nice close reach moving fine. All the sudden I saw gusts on the water surface heading right at us so acted quickly and eased the main. It hit us so hard and for about a solid minute we had both the main and genoa sheeted all the way out and completely free, smacking in the wind and we were still heeled over with the leeward coaming almost in the water. We were able to get the genoa down, reefed the main and continued in still doing 5+kts with just the reefed main.

Gusts when strong enough can really stir things up enough to get you thinking theres something broken, but really you may just have been panicing a bit.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2017 : 13:22:10

I'm suspicious that when you snagged a pot warp or whatever on your wing keel (harder to do without the wing), the pull would cause the opposite reaction to that from snagging on the rudder--maybe pulling the bow to windward. Then, when you hove to to check things, whatever it was could have let go as the boat scalloped to leeward. So there's my theory...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/09/2017 13:26:24

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2017 : 05:45:40

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

the pull would cause the opposite reaction to that from snagging on the rudder--maybe pulling the bow to windward.

that's probably it. dont think ive snagged one on the keel b4 , it makes sense being forward that it would have an opposite pull. even with the rail in the water i dont get that much weather helm.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

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