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alfreddiaz
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/22/2017 :  10:43:02  Show Profile
Perhaps $9,500 is more than a tad high. But then again, I can't see the boat. Perhaps it has been stored indoors for the last 25 years. Most likely not.

I do have another more important and relevant topic that has been on my mind since I bought my first and only boat, a Cat 25 Swing Keel. And it will mean a big factor in pricing the boat you are looking at.

Is there any literature that can show me what items, in and out, have been upgraded on my boat.

I think my mast and boom were upgrades along the way. It's in awesome shapes. It has internally run halyards. The boom also has the nice internally run reefing lines. But maybe these were standard.

I also think my motor mount was upgraded. It is a nice heavy duty spring model (though the 80 pound motor is still a bit hard to lift for my older hands).

I have two sets of winches (four in all) and a fifth for the main halyard. I see catalina 25s only have one set and maybe a third for the main halyard.

I have an anchor roller, but not a very good one in my opinion. I don't think it was installed property.

I also have a roller furling. And there is marine head with holding tank that was done proper.

So all this aside, what is standard equipment and what is an upgrade?

If the boat you are looking at has a wheel (though I would prefer a tiller), auto pilot, GPS navigation with AIS, roller furling and all these extra, and it is in great shape, it might be worth it.

So to all, is there a list of the standard options beyond the manufacturer's brochure? Having this list would really help when going over a boat that you are considering buying.

Al
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts
Response Posted - 06/22/2017 :  13:48:52  Show Profile
Standard or upgrade really depends on the year of the boat. What was an upgrade on an earlier year boat became standard on later years. Still many items were an upgrade like a marine head or porta potty. Another would be a RF. Winches we're probably another choice as to how many and what type.
Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


Edited by - islander on 06/22/2017 13:57:30
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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts
Response Posted - 06/23/2017 :  03:24:23  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage
The question regarding upgrades and would the value of the boat increase is questionable. Big ticket upgrades or accessories can make a difference but other upgrades would not necessarily increase the selling price but make your boat more sellable compared to other boats that an individual may be considering. For example, if a trailer was included in the selling price, that would definitely increase the value of the sale...for those wanting to trailer the boat. Roller furling might add to the selling price, if the individual is familiar with the benefits of roller furling. Some of the other options, such as, number of winches, internal reefing lines in the boom and a 4 spring versus 2 spring outboard mounting bracket, would probably add to the features of your boat when an individual is comparing it against other boats but may not get a higher asking price. I once asked Boat US, my insurance company, if the replacement value would go up based on some of the improvements I had made and the answer was "No". Improvements are oftentimes of most value to the present owner but if a buyer appreciates them, then perhaps that makes the difference if he buys your boat versus another boat that is for sale. When shopping for a used boat, oftentimes, there is a wide range of prices being considered and also different boats/models and so for a buyer it is not always comparing one Catalina 25 in identical shaper to another with only the improvements/options that sets them apart. The buyer is oftentimes looking at various boats by different manufacturers and with different cabin sizes and sailing characteristics. The thing is that there are so many other factors weighing in on the boat value (or interest in a boat)and not all buyers are that knowledgeable as to the value of the improvements. Many buyers are interested in the basics - How does the boat look cosmetically ? Is it a wing keel, swing keel or fin keel and the buyer may have a preference for one verses the other for maintenance reasons or sailing characteristics or draft reasons. Is there a musty smell in the cabin ? How are the creature comforts for a family, inside cabin height ? or is the model going to perform well in races ? What the condition is of the sails ? How new and how well does the outboard run ? Does the bottom have blisters ?
Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
Edited by - OLarryR on 06/23/2017 03:29:09
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts
Response Posted - 06/23/2017 :  06:52:35  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by alfreddiaz

...I do have another more important and relevant topic that has been on my mind since I bought my first and only boat, a Cat 25 Swing Keel. And it will mean a big factor in pricing the boat you are looking at.

Is there any literature that can show me what items, in and out, have been upgraded on my boat....
Al, you might be able to get a copy of the build-sheet for a particular hull number from Catalina Yachts. That won't account for dealer-installed options like roller furling (I don't know if that was offered from the factory on the C-25, although it was on the C-250.) I don't know if there was an intersection between the phase-out of the SK around 1987 and the start of internal halyards in (not sure) 1988. There may have been a few with both, but you very well might might have a new mast.

As Larry says, prices tend to vary with the local market, but a C-25 is basically just a C-25, and will be compared to nationwide listings on boats the viewer will never see in the flesh. If the market was truly based on value, features, rarity, etc., there are a few beautiful '89-91 C-25s out there that I believe could command $20K.
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/23/2017 06:58:43
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ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts
Response Posted - 06/23/2017 :  07:15:44  Show Profile
OLarryR hit it on the head as far as what I am looking at. Do I care that the particular boat I am looking at has a new outboard bracket, self-tailing winches, or a nice 6:1 outhaul? Am I going to pay an extra $1,000 over a boat that has none of this because this because that would be to upgrade to all that (maybe more?). My answer is no. In my comparisons, I care about: rig and keel type, structural integrity of the boat, condition of bottom, working outboard, trailer, a furler, and nice cushions (because thats all the wife cares about).

I actually put together a little spreadsheet trying to compare this boats to other boats to arrive at an average ask price and only made an "adjustment" to the price for a trailer, furler, and dramatic differences in sail inventory. In this analysis, I came up with an average ask by geographic area (OH, KY, IN, MI) of $8,300 and a similar price for the FK/TR configuration when I went outside of that area.
1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687
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ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts
Response Posted - 06/23/2017 :  08:07:11  Show Profile
A also came across a 1987 SK that is at an attractive price that I am considering looking at. I know for the 22, 1986 was a huge design year, with change of the layout of the interior, moving the hatch, anchor locker, and gas tank storage area. Besides windows, were there any significant changes between the older and newer 25s?
1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts
Response Posted - 06/23/2017 :  10:24:13  Show Profile
Yep, One of the best improvements by 87 was they got rid of that horrible plaid cloth in the interior.
Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts
Response Posted - 06/23/2017 :  11:06:14  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I don't know if there was an intersection between the phase-out of the SK around 1987 and the start of internal halyards in (not sure) 1988. There may have been a few with both, but you very well might might have a new mast.



According to Catalina, the internal halyards were started with hull # 5241 in 1985. It was an internal halyard/mast light combo.
Ours is equipped with both the sk and internal halyards.
Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...
Edited by - Kper on 06/23/2017 11:07:14
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts
Response Posted - 06/23/2017 :  14:10:17  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Kper

According to Catalina, the internal halyards were started with hull # 5241
    in 1985.
Surprise! Glad I got '85 #5032--I prefer external halyards, especially the halyard for the furling genoa, which I didn't lead back to the cockpit and could use on the foredeck twice a year.
quote:
Besides windows, were there any significant changes between the older and newer 25s?
To me, the most significant were: [list]
  • The fuel locker in the port cockpit seat, replacing a shelf inside the "dumpster" and eliminating fume and spill issues. (Early '80s)
  • Thru-hulls replacing the infamous "to-hulls" ('84?)
  • The addition to the stem fitting (forestay chainplate) of a vertical tang that was bolted through the bow for better strength. (Early '80s--available from CD.)
  • Welded stainless steel spreader brackets replacing cast aluminum, which could crack (bringing down the mast). (Early 80s--available from CD)
  • Balanced rudder. (Late '80s, now several versions are available from several sources.)
  • Moving the outboard bracket from port to starboard. (Done when the cockpit fuel locker was added.)
  • The wing keel option, which a little later replaced the swinger. ('86-'87)
  • Lowering the cabin sole for more headroon ('89)


    		•
    Dave Bristle
    Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
    PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
    Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
    Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/23/2017 14:24:42
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    GaryB
    Master Marine Consultant

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    USA
    4275 Posts
    Response Posted - 06/23/2017 :  19:59:02  Show Profile
    quote:
    Originally posted by Stinkpotter

    Wow! The '89 is the first year of the last and best version of the C-25, with a different deck and interior molding. The cabin sole is lower due to the lack of a swing keel option, so headroom is greater. A number of subtle changes were made on deck. By 1991 (the last year), the C-25 apparently was too expensive and too heavy for its market, which was turning toward trailer-sailers or larger boats. (No C-25 is a "trailer sailer.") But I've often proposed the '89-91 C-25 might be the best value in a "transportable" coastal cruiser ever made by anybody, including Catalina.

    My feeling is the market value of a good '89 wing keel model is now around $10K--the fin a little less, and a spectacular specimen a little more... But that Texas boat is a LOT less--even if you need to buy a new genoa. And the young 6hp 4-stroke should be fine on a modest sized inland lake. Viewing the boat in Texas and transporting it from there are add-ons I can't estimate. But if I were in the market, I might think hard about checking that one out.

    I'm thinking about driving up there just to check it out. No interest in buying, just curious if it's in bad shape or what.

    Might check out the marina as well since slip fees are only $115/mth compared to my discounted $285/mth and it's maybe 20 minutes farther than where I am now down at the bay. Would be a lot less humid at the lake as well.

    Association Member

    GaryB
    Andiamo
    '89 SR/WK #5862
    Kemah,TX
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    Stinkpotter
    Master Marine Consultant

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    Djibouti
    9013 Posts
    Response Posted - 06/24/2017 :  08:25:44  Show Profile
    quote:
    Originally posted by GaryB

    I'm thinking about driving up there just to check it out. No interest in buying, just curious if it's in bad shape or what...
    Your report could be of interest to somebody lurking here... The '89 is a somewhat rare, very desirable vessel. I think fewer than 200 '89s were made (compared to around 2000 in 1983) and only a handful in 1990-91. (That's going on hull#s in our Boat Search, which has some obvious errors.)

    "The times, they were a-changing!"
    Dave Bristle
    Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
    PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
    Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
    Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/24/2017 08:27:31
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    islander
    Master Marine Consultant

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    USA
    3992 Posts
    Response Posted - 06/24/2017 :  13:52:59  Show Profile
    A dock mate just bought an 89 wing keel In sail away condition for $6000. It's motor ran rough so not being mechanical she had the yard clean the carb. Purrs now. She also had them bottom paint and wax it. I payed $6000 for my 87 wing 7yrs ago and altho I made some improvements like a Bimini, It to was in sail away condition.
    Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
    Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


    Edited by - islander on 06/24/2017 14:01:43
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    ryank020
    1st Mate

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    53 Posts
    Response Posted - 06/28/2017 :  15:54:32  Show Profile
    Deal struck at $8,300! Happy to be an owner of a Cat 25, especially one that doesn't have a swing keel
    1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687
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    GaryB
    Master Marine Consultant

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    USA
    4275 Posts
    Response Posted - 07/04/2017 :  18:10:36  Show Profile
    quote:
    Originally posted by GaryB

    Here's an '89 fin keel tall rig for sale just North of Houston for $4,495. 2012 6HP Nissan 4-stroke. Price seems low.

    http://sailingtexas.com/201701/scatalina25402.html


    I see this one sold today. Surprised it didn't go sooner.

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    GaryB
    Andiamo
    '89 SR/WK #5862
    Kemah,TX
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    Stinkpotter
    Master Marine Consultant

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    Djibouti
    9013 Posts
    Response Posted - 07/04/2017 :  19:45:55  Show Profile
    quote:
    Originally posted by ryank020

    Deal struck at $8,300! Happy to be an owner of a Cat 25, especially one that doesn't have a swing keel
    The '83 TR/FK? Congrats, and welcome! One of the best features of that boat is this place!
    Dave Bristle
    Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
    PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
    Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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    dmpilc
    Master Marine Consultant

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    USA
    4593 Posts
    Response Posted - 07/05/2017 :  09:17:55  Show Profile
    The 89 boat sold quickly. Gone as of yesterday.
    DavidP
    1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
    PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
    Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN
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    pastmember
    Master Marine Consultant

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    2402 Posts
    Response Posted - 07/10/2017 :  07:04:19  Show Profile
    My '89 sold in hours out of state for $12500 ten years ago. I doubt any C25 can pull near that now, I would guess 10K is a market max and your purchase price sounds spot on for a great pocket yacht. Well done.
    Frank Hopper
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    ryank020
    1st Mate

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    53 Posts
    Response Posted - 07/15/2017 :  11:41:00  Show Profile
    quote:
    Originally posted by Stinkpotter

    quote:
    Originally posted by ryank020

    Deal struck at $8,300! Happy to be an owner of a Cat 25, especially one that doesn't have a swing keel
    The '83 TR/FK? Congrats, and welcome! One of the best features of that boat is this place!


    Yep, the '83 TR/FK combo! This forum has been a huge support and look forward to learning alot going forward.
    1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687
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    bigelowp
    Master Marine Consultant

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    1736 Posts
    Response Posted - 07/16/2017 :  18:32:22  Show Profile
    Congrats! . . . . and welcome to the forum. Join the association and get additional benefits too.
    Peter Bigelow
    C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
    Rowayton, Ct
    Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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    offshoreaccount
    1st Mate

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    USA
    71 Posts
    Response Posted - 07/19/2017 :  16:46:04  Show Profile
    Guy on my dock got an incredibly clean 25 sk tr for $2k with trailer. I paid $2400 with half a season of dockage and a ghetto trailer. Mine was not so clean.


    Based on what I see in my market I wouldnt pay more than 5k, and you woudlnt get more than that if selling.
    Offshore Account, 1977 Hull #243. SR, SK
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    Stinkpotter
    Master Marine Consultant

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    Djibouti
    9013 Posts
    Response Posted - 07/19/2017 :  18:36:07  Show Profile
    quote:
    Originally posted by offshoreaccount

    Guy on my dock got an incredibly clean 25 sk tr for $2k with trailer. I paid $2400 with half a season of dockage and a ghetto trailer. Mine was not so clean. Based on what I see in my market I wouldnt pay more than 5k, and you woudln't get more than that if selling.
    As discussed before, markets are local, seasonal, and volatile. A major factor is the inventory of boats in the same category. Sprucing up the boat for maximum "curb appeal", in my experience, gives a seller a huge advantage. More than most other purchases, people seem to buy a boat on emotional reaction--it either grabs you during the first few moments, or it won't from then on. When it does, the rest of the "evaluation" is generally pretty much perfunctory. As a seller, I've watched this happen several times--people who couldn't hide their excitement. (I got partial or full payment on the spot--zero contingencies.) Later, they described how the boat contrasted to so many others they'd looked at... I'm not a rocket scientist!

    I am always amazed/amused by the boats for sale with junk scattered around in the cabin, scum on deck, crud in the cockpit, etc... It makes it very likely the owner is going to keep the boat for a while, almost no matter the price. A few people, like some of those here, can see through it and visualize the possibilities--that's uncommon.
    Dave Bristle
    Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
    PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
    Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
    Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/19/2017 18:38:19
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    sethp001
    Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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    814 Posts
    Response Posted - 08/02/2017 :  17:54:32  Show Profile
    quote:
    Originally posted by Stinkpotter

    quote:
    Originally posted by offshoreaccount

    Guy on my dock got an incredibly clean 25 sk tr for $2k with trailer. I paid $2400 with half a season of dockage and a ghetto trailer. Mine was not so clean. Based on what I see in my market I wouldnt pay more than 5k, and you woudln't get more than that if selling.
    As discussed before, markets are local, seasonal, and volatile. A major factor is the inventory of boats in the same category. Sprucing up the boat for maximum "curb appeal", in my experience, gives a seller a huge advantage. More than most other purchases, people seem to buy a boat on emotional reaction--it either grabs you during the first few moments, or it won't from then on. When it does, the rest of the "evaluation" is generally pretty much perfunctory. As a seller, I've watched this happen several times--people who couldn't hide their excitement. (I got partial or full payment on the spot--zero contingencies.) Later, they described how the boat contrasted to so many others they'd looked at... I'm not a rocket scientist!

    I am always amazed/amused by the boats for sale with junk scattered around in the cabin, scum on deck, crud in the cockpit, etc... It makes it very likely the owner is going to keep the boat for a while, almost no matter the price. A few people, like some of those here, can see through it and visualize the possibilities--that's uncommon.


    This is very insightful, and exactly why our first boat turned out to be a C25 instead of something bigger. It was the smallest of the boats I saw, and had a tiller instead of a wheel (back then I wanted the wheel). So we almost didn't go look at it. But it turned out to be the cleanest and best maintained boat we saw. Then the guy took us out sailing for a few minutes. I was thrilled. My wife loved the rainbow drifter. We bought it on the spot.

    Since then, I've gotten great deals on junked up boats that needed cleaning and polishing, new running rigging, wood refinishing, batteries, etc.


    Seth
    "Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
    "Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
    "Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
    "Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
    "Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
    https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/
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