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Roller furler questions

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fredj
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/31/2017 : 16:10:11

Anyone using the Schaefer cf700 system? If so I am wondering about your experience raising sails in the system. I have an '88 C25 with a CF500 system. It is a real bugger getting the sail up. I need to lubricate the sail and the groove and then it takes serious winching. My better half says "do something about this!!!" We have several head sails but we usully only put one up for the season since it is so difficult. I sent my sails (North) in this past winter for cleaning and checking. They assured me I had the correct luff tape. The sails come down OK, but I have to pull them down. I may have some accumulated friction since the halyards run back to the cockpit going through several turning blocks. Prior to owning this boat (which I really, really like) I had a 30' Van d'Stadt Pioner (which I also liked). I installed a Profurl system on it and it worked like a charm. The Profurl has an aluminum roller furler tube and the the sail was hoisted with ease. I am contemplating swapping out my CF500 for either a Schaefer 1100 system or a Profurl system but would consider the CF700 if those that have it report no problems rasing sails.

So -looking for some experience based comments and wisdom.

Thanks.

Fred Joyal
Marquette, MI
88 C25-WKTM

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2017 : 17:51:55

I can't help you with any info on the Schaefer furlers but I added a Harken Mark IV to my '89 several years ago and other than feeding the sail into the groove my sails go up and down without much effort.

The Mark IV has twin grooves so you can load another sail before dropping the one you're flying (if you want to go to that much effort!). LOL

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2017 : 20:48:40

I have to wonder if the luff cable on your sails is correctly sized for the channel in your furler--apparently that has been affirmed. My only other thought, from using my Hood furler, is it's important that somebody (you or a helper) feeds the luff by holding it as parallel to the channel as possible below the opening as you pull the halyard. It doesn't work to just pile the sail at the bow and start pulling.

Most people's objective with a furler is to have one sail that fulfills their needs in most conditions, including when reefed (partially furled). Ours was a 130, and it stayed up for the season. A few times, getting it down in October was the hardest part--I would literally hook the luff under my foot and step down to pull it out. If you want to select a sail for a particular day on the water, you might be one of those folks who prefer hank-on sails instead of a furler. (I can't relate.

)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/31/2017 20:57:38

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2017 : 03:02:51

Only three likely causes come to mind. One is if the masthead sheaves are damaged or broken. Another has to do with the turning blocks. I have one snatch block at the base of the mast that for some reason gets misaligned occasionally. It gets turned, and the halyard won't run freely through it. If that's it, just ease the tension on the halyard and align it with your hand. The third possible cause is if a turning block or snatch block is damaged or has bad bearings.

There almost has to be something binding or broken in the blocks or sheaves. Replacing the furler would be my last choice, because it's expensive, and it probably isn't the cause of the problem.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2017 : 05:43:13

Steve has good advice. Make sure the halyard runs freely without the sail attached to eliminate a problem at the mast head. Try raising the sail from the mast. Having the halyard running to the cockpit adds more friction and for a sail that's raised once per season really isn't needed. I raise my sail then coil the line and hang it on the mast where it stays untill the sail comes down at the end of the season. If your line is internal check the sheave at the base of the mast where the line comes out. I had to replace mine because they were binding.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2017 : 09:30:39

Your sail shop is wrong. The luff tape is the wrong size.

I have had two different sailmakers put the wrong luff tape on a sail. Best bet is to get them to cut you a 3" strip of #5 and #6 and choose the one that works. Heartbeat went through a day of racing with an oversized luff tape - it sucked! Winching the headsail up took forever.

Matt

former Captain of Heartbeat
Catalina 25 Tall
#4816

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2017 : 12:07:31

Hi guys,

Just
fyi, should anyone want. National sail is selling the CDI furler with a new 150% headsail for $1,500 for our boats.....

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

fredj
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2017 : 19:13:21

Thanks for all of the good input. This has been an issue for a couple of years so I have devoted a fair bit of effort to checking and double checking things. The luff tape is indeed a #5. While North Sails technicians at the Chicago loft confirmed it I have also measured it myself with a micrometer. The luff tape leading edge (with the wire) fits within the furler groove no problem to begin with and the first few feet are not an issue. It just gets tougher and tougher as more of the tape is in the groove. My wife dutifully kneels at the base of the furler and alignes and feeds the sail. I replaced all of the sheaves with ball bearing sheaves last year and double checked the "freeness" of the halyard, in fact both halyards. I have 2 jib halyards and have the same issue when using either to raise the jib in the furler. As I write tnhis it occurs to me that I have not checked the halyards under any load other than raising the jib. Perhasp I can rig something up that would enable me to test rasing a load up the forestay without using the furler.

I still hope to hear from someone who has a Schaefer CF500 or a CF700.

And yes, replacing the furler is expensive but if it solves my issue it would be money well spent, but I would really like to figure out/know what the issue is with my system.

Again, thanks.

Fred Joyal
Marquette, MI
88 C25-WKTM

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2017 : 20:25:28

I wonder about leading the halyard back to the cockpit for a genoa on a furler--it's like, what's the point? Good blocks or bad, every turn adds some effort. I hoisted mine (once at the start of the season) from the mast, where there was a winch I only used for the final tensioning. Actually, I generally did it from the bow where I could feed the luff into the slot single-handed. But my halyards were external. I believe the 1989+ halyards are internal--I don't know about the 1988.

My feeling was lines that were used under sail, including the main halyard, should come back to the cockpit. My furling headsail halyard, used twice a year (plus for cyclonic storms), didn't.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/01/2017 20:28:29

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2017 : 04:01:48

Most furlers accommodate a #6 tape so your #5 should easily slide in the groove. I wonder if the foil is damaged or pinched somewhere along it's length. This could happen when the mast was dropped at sometime. If the foil is in sections maybe one section is misaligned or a clip is broken. You say you lube the groove, What are you using?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

fredj
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2017 : 05:52:54

Good thought re: damage to the foiler "tube." I am absolutely sure that my problem is with the foiler tube somehow. How do I know? The first time I tried hoisted the sail this season the sail was about 3/4 to the top and the accumulated friction between the sail and the tube pulled the tube from the bottom unit. This implied to me that the luff tape was too big, but measurements said it was a #5, and it is not a tight fit to begin with.

Before putting the mast up this season I made up a device using a piece of wire and some cloth that I could use to clean the groove in the furler. It was not a tight fit but it did clean any accumulated dust.

I did call Schaefer about the problem and they said I should try to find a smaller (thinner) luff tape - one that was assembled with glue and not sewn, but sdenw to the sail. They said their experience with the problem was with sewn luff tapes. I do not think the line of sewing on my sail is the issue.

It looks like getting a strip of #5 luff tape and test it in the foiler would be a confirming test.

Fred Joyal
Marquette, MI
88 C25-WKTM

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2017 : 11:28:00

I would also run the swivel up and down by itself to see if possibly it is binding somewhere along the length of the foil.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2017 : 14:23:20

If the problem is one kink or crimp in the foil, as you hoist the sail, the drag should become noticeable at on discrete point and then be steady thereafter. If the drag builds gradually and continuously (even with a dry lubricant), that suggests multiple kinks or a mismatch between the luff and the foil.

BTW, to test hoisting the swivel by itself, I'd attach some string to bring it back down. Otherwise...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

fredj
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2017 : 05:04:16

After a number of tests I believe all is as it should be with this furler and sail. Long story short, we used a fair bit of dry lubricant and made sure that the sail had a straight run to the feeder. One of the design issues with this furler is that the feeder is fairly close to the deck - about 18" off the deck. So, with the sail stretched out on the foredeck the person assisting needed to keep the luff constantly aligned with the feeder for this 18" and needed to be on their knees to do so. My previous boat had a ProFurl system with the feeder a couple of feet off the deck which made it easier to keep the sail aligned.

There is noticable but modest friction between the luff tape and the slot in the furler and the friction accumulates, but smoothly, as the sail is raised but dry lube helps a lot. The weight of the sail is also increasing with respect to the load on the halyard but this is only just noticable. The combination makes the last 1/3rd or so of the hoist, at least for this aging mariner, a winching affair.

Thanks to all for your suggestions.

Fred Joyal
Marquette, MI
88 C25-WKTM

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2017 : 20:33:52

Yup--I needed to feed the luff into the slot from a low position... But with an external halyard, I could do it alone from the bow. I just swung the halyard around the shrouds so it ran directly to the mast-head. I only needed the winch to do the final tensioning, which was permanent for the rest of the season.

For your future reference for getting the sail down, I had problems a few times... I found that I could hold a piece of the luff up while standing, put a foot on the "U" I had created, and step down to pull the sail down maybe a foot at a time. The good thing about dry lube is it'll still be there then. Silicone and others can make it worse by holding dirt and salt over time.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

fredj
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2017 : 14:26:18

Fortunately, getting the jib down has never been a problem. It doesn't fall on its own but a slight tug brings it down. On my previous boat, with external halyards, I did as you did. I fed the luff tape with my left hand and used my right hand/arm to raise the sail. Since the feed slot was about waist height or a little higher it was not a problem. In one of those interesting twists of life, on a smaller boat, it takes two of us to raise the jib. But, as you say, when it is up, it is up for the season.

Fred Joyal
Marquette, MI
88 C25-WKTM

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.