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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Winch wrap improvement

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WK 727
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2017 : 18:57:12

The original blocks used for the jib sheets on my 04' 250 were too tall and would roll the sheet over the three wraps on the winch and get in a bind. I replaced them with the low lead car from Catalina Direct and now the sheet approaches the winch from below the wraps. They work great and I would recommend them to anyone with the same problem. They easily slide on the 1" track as a replacements. Something simple but with a positive impact on the sailing.

Before approach with the angle too high

After approach from below the wrap

Factory Tall Block

Replacement Low Lead Car

Regards, John
Westlawn Institute graduate
Yacht Design and Naval Architecture
04 Catalina 250 WK
Standard rig w/wheel steering
Yanmar 9hp diesel

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2017 : 16:27:04

Wow! Maybe I'm Superman or something but I never use my winches (especially with 3 wraps) to set my jib sheets. I just tug on them and set them in the cam cleat to keep them taught. Now if I had a 30 or 35 footer then yes I'd winch the jib sheets, but a 25' with a 135 genny, not so much. Maybe in a gale!?!?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

WK 727
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2017 : 17:59:05

Bruce, you bring up an excellent point, but my 250 doesn't have a single clam cleat on it from the factory. I have been trying to use it the way it came. I though that I would try this first.

Maybe I need to add some clam cleats? That does seem to be a logical observation. Thanks for the input. I have looked for examples and haven't found many with the cleat to determine the optimum location on a 250.

Regards, John
Westlawn Institute graduate
Yacht Design and Naval Architecture
04 Catalina 250 WK
Standard rig w/wheel steering
Yanmar 9hp diesel

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2017 : 19:45:29

John,

First, Bruce is Superman, at least most people think so.

Second, I have a C250 with the same problem with winch wrap.
I took another approach and mounted a fairlead and cam cleat aft of the jib track.
It's been a few years, but here's some links with parts that look right (check the sizes).

As side benefit, you can also put the jib sheet in the cam cleat when you tighten the main halyard.

Fairlead
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/4119/fairlead-with-stainless-steel-insert-.cfm

Cam Cleat
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/988_236/cam-cleat-for-line-to-12-diameter.cfm

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 05/11/2017 19:51:49

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2017 : 21:49:58

FWIW, my C250 came with the low profile cars that you converted to. Even my C34 has the low profile ones (though bigger, obviously).

Those high profile ones that you show look like real toe-stubbers and trip-overs.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/12/2017 05:33:26

doublereefed
Navigator

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167 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2017 : 22:09:43

WK 727... aren't those self tailing winches? You don't need cleats... I have cleats.... I wish I had self tailing winches!

'95 C250 WB #61
Midway, UT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2017 : 06:40:50

Another thing about Super-Bruce... He has a C-25 (used to be mine) where the sheet turns on a low block on the side-deck (which the 250 doesn't have) and leads upward to the winch on the coaming. Different geometry (if he used it). I have to wonder whether his cam cleats get locked on the sheets in stiff breezes, without the winches to ease most of the pressure...

That can be a lot of stress on a lonely cam cleat. (If he's using the ones I put on, they're positioned to take the sheet as it comes off the winch and is hooked under one horn of the original horn cleat to hold it down in the cam--an alternative to risers for the cams but not obvious to successor owners.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/12/2017 06:43:43

Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2017 : 08:46:59

Using smaller diameter sheets or only using two wraps on the winch will also work. I use two wraps successfully as my sheets are oversized.

1998 250 WK/TR #355 "Trail Break"
Lake Tahoe California

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2017 : 12:07:55

Thanks John (WK 727)

I didn't know that a low lead car would make a difference.
That's good to know and helpful for other C250's with winch wrap.

When we take friends sailing (and they want to help).
Winch wrap is usually the first thing they learn on their own.
"Oh yeah, it does that."

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

WK 727
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2017 : 18:15:35

Thanks everyone...it is just something to consider. Sailed in 20 - 28 knots the other day without an issue. Sure was nice. FYI, I use one wrap up to 10, 2 wraps to 20 and 3 above that. If I need the winch for a halyard, I put it on a tack with the appropriate sheet loose. Basic stuff.

Regards, John
Westlawn Institute graduate
Yacht Design and Naval Architecture
04 Catalina 250 WK
Standard rig w/wheel steering
Yanmar 9hp diesel

moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2017 : 10:05:13

Do you have the Catalina Direct part number of the low lead car? I have the same issue and would love to solve it.

Don Moser

WK 727
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2017 : 13:40:52

There are two listed. I purchased H1927.

Regards, John
Westlawn Institute graduate
Yacht Design and Naval Architecture
04 Catalina 250 WK
Standard rig w/wheel steering
Yanmar 9hp diesel

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2017 : 07:53:46

Hey, Bruce, what a surprise that you have no difficulty trimming the jib in a blow on Long Island Sound while not using the winch with 2 or 3 wraps!

One wrap seems to reduce the force 2x that is needed to haul in the line under tension, and 2 or 3 wraps seem to reduce the force by about 4x and maybe 8x, respectively. I cannot imagine how you can release the sheet from a cam cleat and then hold onto it when the wind is 15-20 kt! I believe that my life and the safety of my crew depend on the use of the winches to trim the jib, since the force of the jib clew pulling the sheet is immense and seems to be many hundreds of pounds.

You must be really strong, indeed!

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2017 : 10:03:26

Thanks for the reply; I just ordered a couple of them!

Don Moser

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2017 : 20:44:48

John, lucky I guess. I rarely sail in 20s, not fun. I take a wrap on the cleats, then pass the sheets through the cam cleats. That reduces the stresses a lot. But mostly muscle.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2017 : 22:41:07

My 135% genoa on my tall rig is way bigger than my kite I use to pull me across water and snow and take me through the air with no problem (kite boarding). I do not feel those forces would be manageable without a big harness attached to me. I know a winch is necessary on my boat to manage these forces. I am no slouch in the strength department either. Lets just say sailing is the easiest activity that I participate in out of many. I like the low lead car solution and think that will be on my short list as my wife is usually the one trimming the big sail when tacking. Thanks for the info. Glad there is a solution other than bigger winches as I like my larger sheets for easy handling. We often sail in 15-20 knot wind up here.

1998 250 WK/TR #355 "Trail Break"
Lake Tahoe California

Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2017 : 23:23:47

quote:
Originally posted by WK 727

There are two listed. I purchased H1927.

FYI. The one WK 727 purchased have a 2,000# working load and the less expensive ones are 1500#. Cam cleats rated at 300# might be a bit weak for a big genoa so I am not sure that is a good alternative.

1998 250 WK/TR #355 "Trail Break"
Lake Tahoe California

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.