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Enough about politics, pressurized & hot water?

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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/08/2016 : 19:52:45

I've finally gotten around to addressing my fresh water system. I ripped everything out of the boat because it was black inside.

For $670 in parts, I can install pressurized water with hot and cold, including using the galley faucet as a deck shower (as someone else on this forum has mentioned doing).

If I go with the pressurized hot and cold, I think I should install the $480 in solar panels and battery charging apparatus because heating the 3 gallon hot water tank to 140F will take 37A.

Or for $200, I can reinstall a manually pumped, cold only system with Whale flipper pumps.

Please would anyone offer their usability/satisfaction insights about their experiences with fresh water plumbing: hot and cold vs. cold only, and automatically pressurized vs. manually pumped?

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2016 : 21:11:09

I converted mine to pressurized and love it. At the same time ripped out the old tank and installed a bladder tank. Holds much more water now. Toying with hot water but haven't convinced myself yet.

Wesley Allen
"Breaking Wind"
1982 C-25 SR/TR/SK #2773
Hemlock, MI

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2016 : 22:44:15

What are your plans for hot water, and where will you be using it? From what I've seen, the amperage involved is way beyond what you can reasonably get from solar electrical power--you need to rely on shore power. Bigger boats draw heat off the engine.

Pressurizing is another thing--modern automatic pumps draw 10-15 amps, but just for the time a faucet is open, which is typically seconds or minutes. I like mine, but it's cold water only.

An efficient approach for hot water:

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/08/2016 22:48:23

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2016 : 08:33:16

Pressurizing the cold water system is very easy. Basically you need a Pump and 2 faucets. An aft shower can also be added easily. Adding hot water is more complicated. Seaward makes a 12volt 3gal water heater that claims to make hot water in 1 hr. It uses a 300watt element and 30 amps. you would need a house bank of battery's to handle a 30 amp draw every time you wanted to make hot water. You would need massive solar panels to try and keep up if you want to keep the house bank battery's charged while you are away so I don't think that panels are feasible. You could just have a large enough house bank that will handle the heater for say 2-4 heating cycles that might be good for a weekend away then recharge them back at the dock but this all depends on how you plan on using the heater. You also have to consider where to put this house bank (space) and the heater(space). Then there is the extra plumbing and electric for the hot water side and you need a thermostatic mixer valve as per ABYC H-23. Like I said having hot water gets more complicated. I have pressurized my cold water system with an aft shower and I am very happy with it. The solar bags that Dave showed work very well. Throw 2 of them on the cabin top and you have 10gal of hot water. Simple and cheep.http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C51%7C2234308%7C2234310&id=2785571

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 11/09/2016 09:05:11

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2016 : 18:25:00

Just a thought looking at the Sun Shower solar hot water bag -- many people in my neck of the woods have a passive solar hot water system attached to their roof. It consists of black plastic panels filled with antifreeze. A pump circulates the fluid to the solar collectors then to a heat transfer manifold where it preheats cold water going to the hot water tank. In full sun even on cool days it can generate temperatures in the 120� range.
Fabricating such a solar collector could be technically challenging but anybody handy with plastic pipe and fittings can probably do it. I think the bigger problem would be where and how to mount it, but if you planned to attach large solar electricity panels, then passive hot water panels would be about the same. If you live in a temperate climate without freezing winters you could do without antifreeze and a heat exchanger. Pumping the water would be trivial.
Black plastic is your friend on this.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2016 : 18:56:40

However, most of us only need hot water for a few minutes a month. I can't imagine, on a 25' pocket cruiser, justifying an electric recirculating system with fixed solar collecters versus putting a plastic bag on the cabin-top for an hour seems like a stretch. Another solution for hot water to wash a pot or pan after dark is a teapot on the butane stove.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/09/2016 18:57:31

Good Times
1st Mate

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45 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2016 : 21:03:31

I use successfully a pump up sprayer with a shower nozzle:
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/shower/

strap to the mast when the sun is out will heat it up in 2-3 hours; if sun does not cooperate or you are in a hurry warm up a gallon water on the stove, pour into sprayer and off you go; works much better then the gravity fed blatters;
a friend of mine made a shower stall in the cabin of a Hunter 22 with a curtain attached to a home depot plastic shower pan; takes a shower down below in comfort then picks up the pan and dumps the water into the cockpit - his wife likes it a lot (sorry, no pictures).

Andy Kohler

C25 #6012 TR WK
traditional layout

16ft Hobie Cat
23.5 Hunter

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2016 : 07:47:15

Pump up sprayer with a shower head. Nice idea. Just have to find one that is black. Most you see are white semi transparent.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2016 : 11:28:26

Try Krylon flat black spray.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2016 : 19:58:52

I have something very similar to that for spraying Miracle Gro on the plants in the garden. The spray head might be a wee bit different. I'll have to get one for the boat next summer since my black plastic bag solar shower is a little ungainly. That said, I probably can use the black bag to heat the water to go into the pump sprayer. Won't take very much room.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2016 : 20:54:48

I just walk about 300 feet to the heated and cooled restroom/showers next to the pool. So much easier and there's always an ample supply of hot water.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 11/10/2016 20:55:24

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2016 : 21:11:29

I walk about 200' to my bathroom.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2016 : 08:24:22

Rather than using electricity or sunlight to heat the water, a third viable option is gas.

Coleman makes a free-standing unit (for car-camping as well as boat-camping) that uses the small, disposable canisters. They call it the Hot Water On Demand (HWOD) H2Oasis:

http://www.coleman.com/hot-water-on-demand-h2oasis-portable-water-heater/2000026562.html

A little more complicated option is the free-standing units that require a pressurized water source. When you install a cold-water pressurization system it's a good idea to install an outlet for a hose, for a quick fresh-water washdown when you're away from the dock, and that also allows for these two possibilities.

One is the Triton 5L and the other is the Eccotemp L5 (not a coincidence):

http://www.campchef.com/triton-5l-portable-water-heater.html
https://www.eccotemp.com/eccotemp-l5-portable-tankless-water-heater/

Each of them comes with a hand-held spray nozzle on a hose, and they require a pressurized cold water source as well as a separate propane tank. Certainly not as convenient as a permanently installed hot water system, but on a little sailboat these could be an improvement over the solar option without draining the house battery.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2016 : 11:43:23

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I bet the pig tale on the backstay would be a perfect spot for the hot water bags or the Ecotemp heater.

Like some of the others said, I currently walk 300' to a shower at the marina, when away from the marina, I bathe in the lake. I'm aiming on fitting the boat for Chesapeake Bay and South Florida cruising. Hot water would be a luxury on the boat - whether or not its worth it is a monetary consideration only because I like boat projects.

As far as electrical power goes, the house battery bank is 200Ah, and the secondary bank is 100Ah. I can fit 200W of solar panels on my bimini, which is abaft the boom so that I won't have partial shading issues from the boom. I would need to buy two of these because the backstay gets in the way of a single panel:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FM2WKAO/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&th=1

I could also get this generator as a backup. I like this one because its 2-cycle like my outboard, and which will fit at the aft end of the cockpit sole when running and could be stored in the lazarette: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J261PGQ/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_52?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A13G1B0E8656EQ I'd have to connect it to my shorepower connection because it puts out much more AC power than DC.

As far as space goes, I can fit the hot water heater beneath the v-berth. In addition to the Whale model Scott mentioned, I've figured out I can install a household 3 gallon heater like this one, and swap the AC heating element with a 300W DC heating element. The thermostats work with AC or DC. I'd plumb the pressure relief to the bilge so that it couldn't scald anyone in the v-berth.

Here's the hot water heater - I'd have to rewire the electrical connection: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-2-5-Gal-6-Year-1440-Watt-Single-Element-Electric-Point-Of-Use-Water-Heater-XE02P06PU14U0/204318371

Here's the 300W DC element: https://www.amazon.com/Dernord-Immersion-Submersible-Element-Stainless/dp/B017VT68XA/ref=sr_1_7?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1479580654&sr=8-7&keywords=300w+dc+water+heater+element

So its a lot more effort and money than the thermal shower bags or Ecotemp propane shower, and its not at the top of the list of projects, but it'd be fun to install and neat to have.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2016 : 13:52:01

Sounds like you've got a plan. The Gen. you show might be a little small. It only puts out 8amps and that is probably at full throttle so your limited as to what it would power. Its rated at 60db at 20ft. Having it closer in the cockpit screaming away at full throttle is going to be a whole lot louder. Then I would wonder if the exhaust of a 2 cycle in the cockpit wouldn't gas you out

I have a portable Honda 2000 that puts out the full 15amps that enables me to plug just about anything into it from hairdryers to toaster ovens. Has the Eco feature so it only runs at the speed that is needed for the load. Plenty of knock offs available now. I strap it to the bow pulpit and run a cable back to the shore power inlet. Very quiet up there and absolutely no exhaust smell. My wife has the most sensitive nose of anybody. Probably on the level of a dog and she doesn't smell it.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2016 : 22:55:55

Scott, that Honda was 100% perfect for the electric drill we used during your visit to Passage a few years ago. Quieter than any gas engine powered generator I've ever seen and plenty powerful. It's a keeper.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

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