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Dead Battery

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/04/2016 : 23:19:12

The other day I went out to Passage on the dock. It had been about 10 days since I'd been out (work, bad weather, chores). I left the solar panel in place and the battery should have charged. I replaced the battery last year with a group 27 so it should have had plenty of reserve.
I tried the electric start on the Honda and click- click - click. NADA! Would not start. I did not check the battery voltage at that point as I had already left the dock and I needed to start the engine with the pull cord.
Once I got to the main dock at the marina about ten minutes later I turned off the engine and checked the battery voltage. It read 12.5VDC, not 12.8 as it usually did. Now running a 12A engine alternator for 10 minutes provided about 1Amp-Hour of charge in the battery. Being a group 27 battery, it has about 90 A-H. At 45A-H down, the battery voltage would be 11.8VDC.
I checked the current draw from each of the cables and the house draws 0.00 mA when the house switch is off, as expected. The solar charger draws 0.00 mA without the solar panel attached, and it charges at 300-600 mA depending on the sky conditions. It was partly cloudy. The direct 15A plug for the 110AC inverter read 0.00 mA with the inverter switched off. Now I read 2.10 mA (that's 2 one-thousandths of an Amp) on the engine starter and charger circuit. It was not zero but it was pretty small.
In 10 days that's 480 mA-H, or 1/2 an A-H.
This should be insignificant. I checked the wiring at the battery and there was no corrosion. There's a connection in the quarterberth to the engine cables and that was clean. I did not check the insides of the engine for corrosion, but the alternator was putting out about 10A to recharge the battery from 12.5 VDC.
After I sailed and motored a bit, the engine restarted several times from the electric start. At the end of the day, I disconnected the engine cable from the battery terminal to stop the 2.1 mA discharge. I reconnected the solar panel.
Next time back at the boat, the voltage was a little above 12.8VDC with the solar charger and when I reconnected the battery the engine started right up. Afterwards I disconnected the engine from the battery.
I haven't reconnected the engine to the battery since then, but will do so tomorrow. I'll let it go overnight and recheck the battery voltage then.
It's not a defective battery - fluid level is fine, voltage is in a reasonable range. Quite baffling...
Any thoughts what may be up?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2016 : 07:45:49

You left the dock and THEN tried to start the engine? Well, be very happy I bought you a Honda instead of the Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust, which had no pull-starter (except if you removed the cowl and then unbolted the flywheel cover so you could wrap a rope around the wheel)! I guess the stylists wanted a nice "clean" look.

That's all I've got--you're the EE...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2016 : 10:34:00

quote:
Any thoughts what may be up?

Nope, Not a clue...There's no hope, Sell the boat.

Electrical gremlins, Oh what fun. Bruce you know more about electrical stuff than most of us and it sounds like you checked everything so the only thing I would do is take apart any connections you have in that system and then re connect them all. Sometimes corrosion just can't bee seen. I would also check the starter motor connections. The vibration from the running engine could have made a bad connection better temporarily so when you checked things with a meter all looked good. After redoing the connections I would just put it all back to normal and see if it does it again or not. If it does then you have to dig deeper. If it doesn't then problem solved.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2016 : 21:19:22

Scott you might be right! Sell the boat.
But seriously, there could be some corrosion somewhere in the works. This is my most critical period at the end of the season for a few reasons.
1. I transport Passage up the river to its winter home tomorrow. The currents in the river are fierce and I have to wait in the worst of it for the railroad drawbridge. It's the very busy New Haven Railroad line (aka Metro North). I often have to wait 60 minutes or more for an opening. All throughout, I have to hold my position using the engine.
2. Once the boat goes into storage I can no longer test the engine. I can just clean it up and wait for May 1.
I will leave the battery hooked up and I'll check the voltage every few days for discharge.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2016 : 08:27:43

This problem shouldn't affect your trip up the river. The engine doesn't need a battery to run but you may have to pull start it if the battery is low and doesn't recharge from the alternator but I think it will. Anyway don't shut it off once you first start it until you are up the river at the dock. Then you can shut it off and see if it will re-start. Once the boat is out and blocked up I agree its difficult to troubleshoot. Problems just never seem to happen at a good time. I got hauled out on Halloween, Nice weather all week for tidying up and putting the cover on.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

capted
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 11/06/2016 : 13:31:45

I recently had a starting problem with much the same setup- battery with solar charger). A check of the battery voltage was OK, and I resolved the problem by cleaning the battery contacts. I thought all was OK because all the instruments and radio worked, but of course the high starting current was affected by corrosion much more than the small drain of my electrical stuff.
I doubt a 1 mA drain will make any difference since you have a solar charger to compensate for that.
I just put the boat to be hauled, so I just have to clean the connections in the Spring.

Ed

Voyager
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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2016 : 17:16:04

The good news is that the trip upriver was completely uneventful. The engine ran continuously fro 11:00am until 3:00pm. It idled mostly for about 1 hour when I was waiting for the railroad bridge. We got lucky because the wind offset the current almost completely. We got into position for the bridge opening, they opened the north span at 2:00pm but had trouble with the south span and it took an extra 15 mins. Not bad for a 100+ year old bascule bridge.
I left the starter circuit connected for the marina yard crew so they can move Passage from the outer slip to the haulout dock.
We'll see whether the battery loses power in the next few days.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 11/07/2016 17:23:22

islander
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Response Posted - 11/07/2016 : 17:26:03

It was very windy on Sunday. I was wondering how that would effect you. Glad it worked out.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2016 : 20:50:46

Bruce: I wired a rotary battery switch between the engine and the battery on Passage, mostly to prevent somebody touching the button and starting the engine out of the water--just for fun. What became of that?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2016 : 15:54:32

Good question Dave. After I blew out the regulator when I switched the switch fro ON to OFF with the engine running, I turned it into the house main power switch. I have no switch between the battery and engine now, but I do have a 60Amp fuse. To disable the starter, I disconnect the cable leading from the battery to the engine. I do that every Fall and reconnect it every Spring.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2016 : 10:43:51

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

...After I blew out the regulator when I switched the switch fro ON to OFF with the engine running...

Bruce! We're revoking your EE license!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2016 : 21:47:21

Hey, it was right after I got the boat. You know you walk around and you try everything on the boat asking yourself, "hey, what happens if I do this? Unfortunately the engine was running during that test. Didn't blow up immediately - it took me a little while to figure out what I'd done wrong!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2016 : 05:42:47

Got a few minutes to spare, so I'll throw my $0.02 in here. As a disclaimer, however, I'm 'just' a Civil, not an EE.

After re-reading your original post I'm wondering if you're trying to solve the wrong problem. From what I read, you tried the electrical start and got nothing, so you deduced that the battery was 'dead' and you've been trying to figure out why. Yet, everything points to the battery not being anywhere near low enough to have insufficient power to start the motor (these little motors don't need a lot if they're in good condition). Its performance subsequent to that initial problem further discredits that conclusion.

Could it have been a problem with the starter solenoid or the starter motor? In my limited experience with IC engines I've occasionally found those components to be subject to transient malfunctions that are vexingly difficult to trace. On the other hand, when a battery starts getting too low, I've found it might still turn the motor over once or twice without getting a start.

So if it fails to start again, try turning it over slowly a few times with the pull-cord, and then try the electrical start again.

Good luck with this. Oh, and check the pull-cord for wear, especially at the attachment points at BOTH ends. And, do you keep a paddle on board? (I'm not joking, actually).

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

OJ
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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2016 : 08:23:17

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

. . . be very happy I bought you a Honda instead of the Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust, which had no pull-starter (except if you removed the cowl and then unbolted the flywheel cover so you could wrap a rope around the wheel)! I guess the stylists wanted a nice "clean" look . . .

Tell me about it . . .

Does provide extra incentive to keep engine well very maintained and fresh gas + fuel additive in play.

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Edited by - OJ on 11/18/2016 08:23:33

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2016 : 15:34:00

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Panza

...And, do you keep a paddle on board? (I'm not joking, actually).

I do aboard Sarge, a 27-footer with a 3.5L V-6 hanging off the transom). Wish me luck in the tidal currents around here... (I also have a big Delta anchor on a windlass.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2016 : 21:54:27

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Panza

...And, do you keep a paddle on board? (I'm not joking, actually).
...(I also have a big Delta anchor on a windlass.)

When you're in an area with strong tidal currents (like here on SF Bay) that anchor is a source of propulsion that many people might overlook. Not very efficient: after a few hours of drifting you have to drop the hook and wait 6 hours. But that anchor could probably take you quite a distance, in 6-hour stages. 'Course with a dead battery (getting back to the topic of this thread)) that windlass wouldn't help much

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2016 : 09:39:56

Lee -- I'm glad you're thinking like an engineer. Yes, you're right, it was a temporary malfunction that through investigation let me right the original problem (corrosion on a connection in the quarterberth) and identification of a minor issue with trickle of current that was partly due to the same issue. Apparently a small amount of seawater found its way in through a rubber gasket above waterline on the transom and splashed the area around the connection. This electrolysis led to both problems. After I cleaned the corrosion and washed down the area the current drain stopped. Now I've plugged the gaps in the gasket with some additional packing material.
The thing about boats is it's Murphy's Law on Steroids. If anything can happen, it will ... when you least expect it. Start anywhere on an older boat and it'll keep you busy for years!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2016 : 16:38:42

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

The thing about boats is it's Murphy's Law on Steroids. If anything can happen, it will ... when you least expect it. Start anywhere on an older boat and it'll keep you busy for years!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmcsr0wt4wk

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2016 : 17:07:06

quote:
Originally posted by OJ

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

. . . be very happy I bought you a Honda instead of the Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust, which had no pull-starter (except if you removed the cowl and then unbolted the flywheel cover so you could wrap a rope around the wheel)! I guess the stylists wanted a nice "clean" look . . .

Tell me about it . . .

It was an instant deal-breaker for me. Of course, is there a pull-starter on my Honda 225 V6 outboard? Ummmmm...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2016 : 17:24:34

Ha, Yeh they do as an option. Comes with a Gorilla to pull the rope. Food for the Gorilla not included...

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2016 : 18:46:29

A buddy who recently upgraded from an O'Day 27 bought a 31 footer with a Yanmar diesel asked me whether I had dual battery system on board. I explained that I upgraded from a single group 24 to a single group 27 battery recently and I thought I'd be fine with it for some time to come. I explained that I did not have a weather station, a chartplotter, a TV, a wifi booster or an autopilot and that my engine comes with a pull cord. My power budget is no more than 20 AH per day and with a 12A alternator I'm set with one battery.
I reckon I'm way better off but maybe I'm not "thinking big" enough.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2016 : 14:38:33

Good results, Bruce. Do you have a controller for your solar panel?

Stu
1986 C34 #224 "Aquavite"
Cowichan Bay, BC Maple Bay Marina
(formerly San Francisco)
(formerly C25 #2459 "Capricorn Two")

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2016 : 15:10:50

Didn't realize you'd left the Bay Area, Stu, and hadn't seen you around this forum in awhile.

Ya' see that...?

The guy moves up to the most beautiful part of the world, and all's he's got to do in Winter is play on the Internet.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2016 : 18:58:56

Stu
Yes. I have a very simple "on-off" type regulator. When the battery voltage rises just above full charge, the charger cuts out. Once the battery settles back down to just under full, the charger kicks back on. As temps get colder in winter I check the electrolyte level in the cells as the volume typically contracts a little. Stopped by today and the charge was good.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

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