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Broaching

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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/30/2016 : 11:15:15

Hello Again,

Okay, so I know broaching is a bad thing. But what is it exactly ? I have read that setting up for a jibe can induce a broach but I don't know anything more or what actually happens. Thanks again and yes, I'm always happy to provide you with entertainment.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 11:19:52

Lets see now, I think that is just another way to cook chicken.

Wesley Allen
"Breaking Wind"
1982 C-25 SR/TR/SK #2773
Hemlock, MI

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 11:24:24

Sorry about that it's broast the chicken not broach, but that does make me a little hungry now thinking about it. I would like to know also what it really means also.

Wesley Allen
"Breaking Wind"
1982 C-25 SR/TR/SK #2773
Hemlock, MI

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 12:10:30

A broach is when a sailboat rounds up suddenly and uncontrollably to windward. There is such an imbalance between the forces on the sail forward and aft of the CLR that the rudder is incapable of holding the bow off the wind. If you put the helm over, the rudder is merely dragged sideways through the water.

Most of us have broached at some time or another. It isn't particularly uncommon. It can be dangerous, but usually isn't, so long as you're always aware that it can happen and take precautions. (Keep your head down, keep the hatches closed in blustery weather, wear a safety harness and tether in rough weather, etc.) You'll reduce the likelihood of it happening if you reef early. If it happens, the remedy is to dump the air out of the sails, usually by dumping the mainsheet and/or dumping the spinnaker sheet.

A broach doesn't happen often in a controlled gybe, but it certainly can in an uncontrolled gybe. To control the gybe, simply lock the mainsheet traveler car along the centerline of the boat, so that the traveler car can't move either way. Then trim the mainsheet in hard, so that the boom is close to the centerline. Then steer the stern of the boat across the eye of the wind, until the wind catches the sail on the other side. Finally, ease the boom out on the new side. If the mainsail has been reefed down enough, you should be able to gybe safely in very strong winds.

When I'm cruising and shorthanded, I rarely take only a single reef. If I need to reef at all, I take a double reef, so that I won't have to reef again if the wind conditions worsen. You can cope with a severe storm if you have a double reefed mainsail and a roller furling jib.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 13:10:12

OK, yes I have done that not knowing what it was called. (at least a couple of times anyway) Thanks for giving me a name for it.

Wesley Allen
"Breaking Wind"
1982 C-25 SR/TR/SK #2773
Hemlock, MI

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 14:03:37

Hello Again,

Okay Steve. My thanks as well. As it happens my main does have double reef points though I have not yet done my boom or boom/mast reef rigging. I haven't yet decided on how I want to rig it. I have just about decided that I will go with a two line reefing system. So I guess that really means 4 lines. I do have roller furling though I have not yet reinstalled it. And Wes, I got a kick out of your humor. Thanks again.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 14:24:08

I've always thought of a broach as an event in following seas, when the boat slews around as a wave passes under it, and gets caught broadside to the front of the next wave, letting the combination of the wind and the wave push it over to a near capsize or at least to a point where the sails, which likely are already sheeted out, completely lose their drive, leaving the boat dead in the water abeam to the seas. A spinnaker can contribute to the mayhem, since it won't tend to spill the air.

Another contributor to broaching when sailing down-wind can be the helmsman reacting the wrong way to the movement of the boat as a large wave moves under it in the same direction. The water beneath the boat is momentarily moving in the direction of the wave. At that point, the rudder behaves as if the boat were backing up (which it momentarily is relative to the water), and the helmsman might react by turning as if the boat were going forward (which it is relative to the bottom). It's why many sailors are befuddled by following seas. Here's a graphic of the oscillating motion of the water as waves pass under a boat.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2016 14:48:27

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 18:56:04

Just learned something from Stinkpotter! Now I know why the autopilot has such a hard time downwind... Makes sense.

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2016 : 15:05:52

Broaching is probably most often initiated as a following sea or steering event and becomes a wind event as the boat comes broadside to the wind. As noted, it can be extremely dangerous but usually isn't unless the weather is bad.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2016 : 22:08:15

In Kansas it starts with a knock down and a round up out of the knock down; broach. It is the best way to find out how well stowed things are down below.

Frank Hopper

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2016 : 02:54:52

After my C25 reached a certain age, I used to intentionally broach it once a year, to test the rigging. It puts a huge load on the standing rigging, and it will expose any weak point. I thought that, if the rig was sound, it should withstand that much of a load and much more. If not, I'd rather have it fail when I was testing it than to have it fail when I was relying on it. (After 23 years, it never failed.)

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2016 : 06:02:38

the death roll crash jibe occurs when the boat is unbalanced between spinnaker and main ( or to a lesser extent genny and main). the boat starts to oscillate rolling back and forth until the pole hits the water. the boat broaches towards the spinnaker side. the asymmetric hull profile now turns the boat towards the mainsail's side, which causes a violent jibe of the mainsail. check out youtube search for crash jibe, death roll, or chinese jibe.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2016 : 07:03:18

Then there's the goosewing jibe, where the main gets twisted as the boom raising as it slams across with a loose mainsheet. The top of the sail doesn't jibe over, but the bottom does.

In strong winds and big chop, my preference was to sail broad reaches to avoid most of these problems. If it was really piping, rather than jibing over, I sometimes did a "chicken-jibe" (270 degree tack), although hardening the mainsheet prior to and while jibing usually made it a non-event. The chicken-jibe (obviously not a racing maneuver) should be done somewhat gradually to maintain momentum and avoid getting caught "in irons."

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2016 : 07:05:48

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

After my C25 reached a certain age, I used to intentionally broach it once a year, to test the rigging.... (After 23 years, it never failed.)

Don't try it with a B&R-rigged Hunter.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2016 : 06:34:51

I've started racing again on a friend's Ranger 26. this is on our small reservoir. The Ranger is a pretty light boat, particularly for being a foot longer than the C25 was, and we generally have to reef when the wind gets around 10 mph, which seems crazy to me. Anyway, I steer about half of the races because the boat owner is still not too comfortable steering in close proximity to other boats, and I've noticed that when the wind "pipes up" to 10 mph, I'll sometimes broach when tacking. at least I'm guessing it is broaching. The boat heels WAY over as I turn into the wind. This has happened a few times and I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong. Even though we have a reef in the main, and the genoa is halfway furled, do I still have too much sail up? The boat is a 1976 model, and the sails could very well be original.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2016 : 03:55:20

I'm not sure what you're experiencing on the Ranger, Ben, but a broach is more than excessive heeling. It's generally regarded as excessive heeling coupled with a loss of control. The loss of control might be because the boat has heeled so far that the rudder has lifted out of the water, or it might be because it's stern has been knocked sideways by a following sea, or it might be for other reasons.

I've never sailed a Ranger, but some boats, especially those with rounded chines, are designed to heel easily to a certain point, and then stiffen beyond that point. It might be that the heeling you're noticing is normal for it's design.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2016 : 07:21:17

Okay, thanks Steve. :) We're supposed to have decent winds tonight for our second to last Beer Can race, so we'll see if we can keep the heel at a level to which the boat sails most efficiently.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2016 : 09:05:45

quote:
Originally posted by Ben

...The Ranger is a pretty light boat, particularly for being a foot longer than the C25 was... ...I'll sometimes broach when tacking... The boat heels WAY over as I turn into the wind...

The specs I'm looking at for the Ranger 26 say 5860 lbs. displacement and 2050 lbs. ballast with a sail area/displacement of 15.9. That's pretty much proportional to a C-25 tall-fin. The ranger has more beam and the Catalina has a longer waterline, so the evidence suggests, all else being equal, the C-25 TR should outrun the Ranger 26 and the Ranger shouldn't be more tender. (Of course, all else is rarely equal.)

You say she heels dramatically as you are turning toward the wind... That's puzzling to me unless that turn is from a run or a broad reach. Going to windward, the closer you get to the wind, the less the boat will heel. I could understand if the excessive heeling was just after you tacked through the wind, when several things could contribute: loss of boat speed causing a sheeted-in main to be caught broadside as steerage is momentarily diminished, or even a momentarily backwinded headsail.

If any of that sounds familiar, I'll suggest making the turn less sudden so you maintain momentum and speed as you pass through the wind, releasing the jib sheet just before it becomes backwinded and getting the jib across quickly to fill on the other side. Easing the main a little until you gain speed on the new tack can also help--then you can point up and trim the main back in. The overall objective is "smoothness" to hold your speed. Some experimentation might help, and wind-wave conditions affect this.

If none of that applies, well, I'm puzzled.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/05/2016 09:09:40

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2016 : 10:55:17

Dave, you're right; I looked at the specs online for the Gary Mull version of the Ranger 26 and it's is much heavier than I remember reading before. I evidently mis-read it originally. The boat is DEFINITELY more tender than the C25 though. After thinking about the occasional dramatic heeling during tacks, I think you might be right, I may have been more on a broad reach.

Anyway, I hope to try it out on Wednesday, as me and another guy generally take turns on the tiller. Wednesday is really his turn to be on the tiller, but maybe he'd rather be a grinder. Last week we had decent wind and I was much more conscious of trying to tack and jibe more smoothly and it went much better. Wednesday's winds are forecast to be much stiffer, so I suspect we'll have one reef in the main and the genoa rolled up a bit.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

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