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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Non standard size mainsail

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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/16/2016 : 19:58:43

Hello Everyone,

In another recent post,(standard rig main on a tall rig boat) it was mentioned several times that a non standard main could effect the future sail of the boat. My boat is a tall rig and came with a brand new main, never used. During my rigging setup, I bought all of the blocks and hardware to install the 4 to 1 outhaul. I copied the setup as pictured on CDs website. When I bent on the main for the first time, to my dismay I discovered that it would be impossible to use the outhaul because the foot of the main reaches all the way to the boom end fitting. As I see it, all that can be done is to pull the main out by hand as tightly as I can and tie it off.
I do know that the boat has a racing history and I know the sail is a custom made sail. I can only surmise that the PO was trying to get as much sail area as possible. Which makes me wonder if it is even a legal sail to race with. Now, I'm not a racer and have no intention of getting into class racing so I doubt it will have much effect on me. I just wish it would have been made with the foot of the sail the correct length. Thanks for your thoughts.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2016 : 08:29:57

The sail is certainly illegal in any race or regatta sanctioned by the national association, and it's probably illegal in a phrf race, unless the sail's non-conforming size was specifically taken into consideration in calculating the boat's phrf rating.

This is an example of why a non-standard sail can affect the value or marketability of a boat. Most people want standard sized sails. Most people would find an oversized racing sail such as this problematic and inconvenient to use. Racing mainsails usually have a huge roach, because the roach of a mainsail is not measured for racing purposes. As a result, racing mainsails have a roach that is so big that the ends of the battens snag on the backstay when you tack or gybe, and you have to struggle with them to unsnag them. It's very annoying, but racers put up with it because it gives them a small speed advantage. Likewise, most people would not like an undersized sail. Most people want a boat that is rigged just as it was designed. Nevertheless, the sail will probably make the boat very fast, if you can tolerate the annoyance.

A good sailmaker could possibly cut it down for you, but I can't guess at the cost.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2016 : 10:11:15

Steve's right, of course--even under PHRF handicap, the assumption is that a boat meets its own class measurement rules--otherwise it needs to be measured and rated individually to be legal (meaning to be able to survive a protest). The same goes for things like a non-standard traveler on a C-25.

"Cheating" aside, I'm astonished the sail was cut so it couldn't be fully tensioned at the foot--that would be a detriment to a racer (or anybody) beating to windward in a good breeze. I wonder if that PO bought a sail made for another boat. I can't imagine a sailmaker measuring and cutting it that way--even if all he had was the specs for the C-25.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/17/2016 10:12:42

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2016 : 12:48:21

Or . . . was the sail designed for another boat? I know people who, to save money, buy from places like Atlantic Sail Traders and often they buy "new" sails made for a different boat at low prices because the person who ordered the sail never paid the balance owed, hence they are sold to whomever at a bargain price. When I had my old Renegade I purchased "new" sails that had been made for another type of boat but had measurements very close to the Renegade. As I recall, the head sail was identical.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2016 : 21:19:04

Thanks again guys,

All of my sails are currently at the sail loft for measuring and evaluation. However, the main is there because the "custom sail maker" also decided To install batten tensioners on the top two battens as well as some kind of cars for the sail track groove instead of the nylon slugs like the rest of the luff. When I bent on the main for the first time, it was a real bear to get these cars into the groove. And once in, they were too tight and a fight to raise the sail. So I had the sail loft remove the cars and install normal sail slugs.
The sail loft told me that these cars and batten tensioners are intended for much bigger boats. As for the length of the foot, he said yes, he could fix it but the cost would not be pleasant. So I told him I would just live with it. I tried to avoid the word before but sense Dave said it first I will agree. Sure seems like someone was looking to cheat. Thanks again. BTW, the sail maker was Yager Custom Sails out of Spokane, Wa.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2016 : 08:52:42

quote:
Originally posted by Bladeswell

...I tried to avoid the word before but sense Dave said it first I will agree. Sure seems like someone was looking to cheat...

In any race where there's another C-25, he would have been spotted instantly with a sail that reached the end of the boom! We're used to seeing something like 16" (?) of bare metal back there. And if he couldn't tension the foot in over 7-8 kts, he just "cheated" himself!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/18/2016 08:54:11

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2016 : 10:30:05

Thanks again,

In the pictures I've seen, I was guessing that there should have been from ten to twelve inches of bare boom left. I didn't realize it would be about 16". If I ever get around to replacing that main, it will certainly be one made to C25 Class specs. When I get my sails back from the loft I will post a pic after bending it back on.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2016 : 14:19:15

quote:
Originally posted by Bladeswell

Thanks again guys,
The sail loft told me that these cars and batten tensioners are intended for much bigger boats. As for the length of the foot, he said yes, he could fix it but the cost would not be pleasant. So I told him I would just live with it.

BTW, the sail maker was Yager Custom Sails out of Spokane, Wa.

Just curious, but have you called Yager to see if they were asked to build the foot too long, or were given a specific dimension to build the length of the foot to? Does not make sense that any sailmaker would build a sail that is simply too long to be able to be bent on without enough left to tension the foot? (even if the owner wanted an oversize sail)

Sounds like the sail has full battens. If yes, you only have to pick a length for the foot and blend in the leech curve to match up with the bottom full length batten. If you are not racing, who cares if the foot is too long? As long as you can properly tension the foot, the sail will trim fine. Yes, the huge roach will probably hang up on the backstay in light air, but simply release the main sheet as you tack, and haul it right back in after the roach clears the backstay. I have to do that with Confetti since the used main I bought from Derek Crawford a while back (after he had to scrap TSU after she was too damaged to repair) has a huge roach. The tiny hassle is worth it since the sail is very fast!

I cannot believe shortening the foot would cost a fortune if you do not have to change the batten pockets. I have made most all of the sails for Confetti (with a few exceptions) for most of the 40 years I have sailed her, and mains are the highest labor due to all the finish work needed. So, see if not changing the lower batten is able to be done and allow a reasonable leech curve down low to keep the labor costs down. I would also contact Yager and see what they would charge for the modification and why the foot was made too long. You just need to specify the maximum length they have to work with, and what the "legal" foot length is. (not shortening the batten pockets will limit how much you can shorten the foot, but as long as you can shorten it enough to be able to tension the foot properly, then you can enjoy the sail. and if you are racing the boat, you simply take a slight handicap hit.

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Edited by - cshaw on 09/18/2016 14:20:17

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2016 : 15:42:19

Hi Chuck,

And thanks for your input.No, I have not called Yager because I figure whats done is done. not to mention the fact that they are in Washington state while I am in southern California. I'm not trying to place blame here, my guess is he built the sail according to his customer's wishes. Hey, we all need to earn a living right ? The sail loft I'm currently dealing with said it would be several hundred dollars to shorten the foot and thats why I backed off of that plan.
Oh, and only the top two battens are full and they go into batten tensioners at the luff. Now maybe I should get a second appraisal for the foot shortening work because I don't think I will be doing any further business with this loft. I asked what he would want "ball park" for a 135% furling headsail. He said "in the neighborhood of $3000. Maybe I look stupid or something, I don't know. But what I do know is that I can get that same sail from Ullman for about $1200 and I can get it from National For $1000. Anyway, Thanks again guys.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2016 : 09:43:42

A custom main and 150 Genoa from Quantum out of higher thread count Dacron, High Aspect Challenge sailcloth was approximately $1000 for each about 8-9 years ago. It is highly doubtful the costs have gone up astronomically to anything close to $3000. Your thinking for stock sails mail order of $1000 - $1200 is more in line with what I would expect and possibly custom made sails have gone up to $1500- $2000. $3000 - Seems like an ultra conservative estimate but if made in the USA then costs will be higher than where they are usually made which is in South Africa, etc where labor costs are less expensive.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2016 : 12:10:20

quote:
Originally posted by Bladeswell

...I was guessing that there should have been from ten to twelve inches of bare boom left. I didn't realize it would be about 16"...

I was just guessing--from a deteriorating memory.

The longer foot can also tend to increase your weather helm, especially if it's accompanied by a larger roach. Together, they could move the main's center of effort aft enough to affect helm balance. (I always want a little weather helm, but I've sailed boats--especially a Hobie--that were a workout for the arm and hand! At that point, the drag is slowing the boat.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/19/2016 12:18:56

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2016 : 14:45:02

If a sailboat has a heavy weather helm, it's because either the rig is badly tuned or the sails are badly trimmed. Any racer with a well tuned rig and well trimmed sails has a feather light helm, despite a mainsail with a big roach. Racers wouldn't use mainsails with big roaches if they created a heavy helm and drag, and slowed the boat.

Whether racer or cruiser, any sailor who wants to sail efficiently has to learn to balance all the forces on the jib and mainsail, above the waterline, against all the forces on the hull, keel and rudder, below the waterline. The measure of his success will be when the boat will hold a closehauled heading in 12-15 kt winds with only the slightest pressure on the helm. Laser racers often steer their boats by shifting their weight on the boat rather than by using the tiller. Turning the rudder in order to hold the boat's heading creates drag.

The most common mistake most sailors make is in using too much tiller pressure. A boat will foot faster and point higher with a very light hand on the helm. A heavy hand makes her labor. A light hand lets her run free.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

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