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Better to race with my blown out genoa or new jib?

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 12:31:19

re: your picture, the telltales look like you are properly trimmed. I see the inside AND outside telltales are flying back, with what appears to be the lower and upper are dropped slightly, perhaps caught in that photo as bereaking about the same time....a good thing.

When pointing further upwind, you have a LOT of sheet left that you can come in. The clew of the sail would be almost at the jib car, you are closer to a beam reach based on the apparent wind on the windex in that photo. nvm I just read the caption on the photo. But overall the sail looks good. Franks pic is legendary: note the tiller position is centered, though I would suspect a little too much leeway based on heel angle.

Are your sheets outside the lifelines all the way back? Play with halyard tension so that the horizontal wrinkles JUST start to flatten. Same on the main, whose condition also looks good.

s/v No Worries, O'Day 28
PO Moe'Uhane - C25 SR/FK #1746

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 13:28:48

Frank's picture looks to me like the camera is tipped such that the heel angle is even greater than the picture makes it look. It might be over 50 degrees. Maybe he caught a gust, or he's giving up speed on a short beat by not reefing the main in order to have the full main for going downwind. IMHO, as great as those sails look, that's not a fast position--neither the sails nor the keel and rudder can do their things. And that big guy in blue isn't helping!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2016 : 16:56:49

Frank's picture is one of my favorites and I have it saved as it shows how the boats could/should be sailed!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2016 : 18:14:40

Note the inverted top of the reefed main.

Frank Hopper

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2016 : 18:17:51

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Frank's picture looks to me like the camera is tipped such that the heel angle is even greater than the picture makes it look. It might be over 50 degrees. Maybe he caught a gust, or he's giving up speed on a short beat by not reefing the main in order to have the full main for going downwind. IMHO, as great as those sails look, that's not a fast position--neither the sails nor the keel and rudder can do their things. And that big guy in blue isn't helping!

Note the rudder is perfect and the skipper is the two time C 25 champion... its fast.

Frank Hopper

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2016 : 20:53:36

Also note that the reefed boat is ahead of the unreefed--not surprising in that air. I've had a reefed C-25 creep up on me from astern in wind where I was heeled too far and should have also reefed. But I was headed home at the time--not interested in making the adjustment. (You know the saying: When there are two sailboats on the same tack on one body of water, there's a race going on.

)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/06/2016 21:01:41

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2016 : 05:31:12

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Also note that the reefed boat is ahead of the unreefed--not surprising in that air. I've had a reefed C-25 creep up on me from astern in wind where I was heeled too far and should have also reefed. But I was headed home at the time--not interested in making the adjustment. (You know the saying: When there are two sailboats on the same tack on one body of water, there's a race going on. )

Here at Cheney our legs are short so it is often the call to carry more up wind to have more off the wind.

Frank Hopper

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2016 : 08:59:49

quote:
Originally posted by pastmember

Here at Cheney our legs are short...

Makes for better headroom in the C-25 cabin!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2016 : 12:31:44

In the photo of the two boats, it looks like the leading boat is trimmed better. He not only has a reef in the mainsail, but he also is using a "fisherman's reef." The mainsail is being backwinded by the closely trimmed jib. The mainsheet traveler is eased down, to port of the rudder, creating a big "bubble" in the luff of the mainsail. That greatly reduces the heeling moment caused by the mainsail, while leaving just enough pressure on the mainsail to help the boat point to windward. By comparison, the trailing boat hasn't reefed the mainsail, and the traveler is trimmed closer to the centerline of the boat, perhaps even a little to starboard of the rudder. The trailing boat's mainsail has no bubble and is laid down smooth. The sails look fairly smooth, but it isn't fast.

In Frank's photo of his boat, he has eased the mainsheet to leeward considerably. His boom is over the gunwale, which is very good. My suggestion would be that, instead of easing the mainsheet, he ease the traveler to leeward first, and then, if the boat is still heeling too much, ease the mainsheet. Easing the traveler changes the sail's angle of attack. Easing the mainsheet changes the sail's shape (assuming the boom vang is not taut). In a strong wind, a flat sail is much more efficient than a full or twisted sail.

It's hard to be sure from a photo, but the foot of the jib looks awfully full. It looks like the genoa cars should be moved aft. That would flatten the foot of the jib, and spill some wind out of the top of the jib, which would help keep the boat on it's feet in that strong wind.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

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