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Better to race with my blown out genoa or new jib?

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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Initially Posted - 09/06/2016 : 16:40:27

After seeing some photos of me racing recently, I think my genoa might be blown out. There's a pronounced bowl in the middle of the foot despite me having the sheet trimmed as tight as it will go.

But my jib is nearly new.

The genoa is around 150% and the jib, 110%.

Being on an inland lake with limited wind, I've been flying the genoa when racing.

On a course with equal upwind work and downwind running, should I stick with the genoa or use the new jib?

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 09/06/2016 18:46:34

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 18:19:12

Did you try moving the sheet cars back? That flattens the foot, and allows a little more twist at the top--better particularly in higher winds. Move them forward in light air for more power, giving up a little in pointing to get speed.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/06/2016 18:46:42

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 18:40:07

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Did you try moving the sheet cars back? That flattens the foot, and allows a little more twist at the top--better particularly in higher winds.

Yes, I should have mentioned that I have the jib sheet cars are all the way aft when flying the genoa.

Edited by - sethp001 on 09/06/2016 18:45:40

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 18:59:40

Sail condition and shape is hard to visualize here... Generally, in light air, you'll do better with more size and fullness, even to windward. You want some curvature at the foot, as long as you aren't "cupping" the leech back toward the boat going upwind.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 19:37:35

There's no way of answering your question without more info and perhaps photos.

How old is your genoa and what company made it?

Sails don't really stretch so much along the foot that you can't flatten the bowl out of the foot by moving the car aft. In 8-12 kt winds, the genoa car should be set a few inches aft of the lifeline stanchion just aft of the aft window, approximately as shown in this photo. When the car is set there and the sail is properly trimmed, the sail should look about like the sail in the brochure photo. Notice that the foot of the jib in that photo is not flat. Flattening a sail depowers it. You should only start to depower the genoa when the boat begins heeling excessively and you feel too much tiller pressure. If you aren't getting good racing performance, it might be because your genoa cars are too far aft. That flattens and depowers the jib and spills air out of the top of the sail. When sailing closehauled, the leech of the sail should be about 4-5" from the tip of the spreader, and perhaps a wee bit more in light air.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/06/2016 19:44:33

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 20:25:02

That's a great shot of shape for about 10+ knots of breeze or more. Less, and you might get a tiny bit more speed by easing everything. Board-flat does not do well converting the direction of the air flow to create driving force in light air. And in light air, you want the upper section of the sail working for you and not twisted off.

If you have a GPS that gives you VMG, set a waypoint something like 50 miles directly upwind (even if that's in another state) and experiment with sails, shapes, and courses to see what gives you the best VMG toward that objective in that particular wind. You might be surprised by what you find, and you'll probably learn something that will help you on the race course.

That said, I can't say you don't need a new 155, but a curved foot is not a sign of a blown out sail--a deep "pocket" with a flattened foot and leech is.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/06/2016 20:26:37

hewebb
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Response Posted - 09/07/2016 : 04:06:03

I have a similar issue with my 150. The foot has a nice curve to it, however, the draft apex is fairly deep and aft of where I believe it should be. The sail material is still quite crisp, which gets me to thinking perhaps the sail was constructed that way. The boat does not point as well as I think it should, even for a wing keel. When heading to weather the tel-tails fly well provided I watch my heading. There is no name on the sail so I do not have any idea who made it. I am seriously considering ordering a new one.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/07/2016 : 05:33:40

I bought a cheap new 150 for my C25, Howard, when I was retired and strapped to pay my son's college tuition. It was cut too flat, and it lacked power. It was only sort of useful in very strong winds. Basically, it was wasted money.

But, before you give up on the sail, I'd suggest you ask a good sailmaker to evaluate it, and tell you if he can fix it. If not, then I'd sell it cheap and order a new one. At our age, there's no good reason why you should continue to struggle with a sail that doesn't give you satisfying performance. After all, "Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance."

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

hewebb
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Response Posted - 09/08/2016 : 04:09:58

Steve

I have taken the sail in to have it evaluated and was told it is in good condition so I have been sailing with it for a couple of years. I sail with a couple of very experienced racers and their opinion is the sail needs to be replaced to get maximum performance out of the boat. Catalina Direct sail sale starts this Friday and I have decided to go ahead and order a new one.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - hewebb on 09/08/2016 04:17:04

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 09/08/2016 : 14:54:23

One more $0.02 worth -- Contact Ullman/Ventura, CA -- they make the sails for CD and they were the supplier for years to Catalina yachts. Gary is extremely knowledgeable about our boats and I would ask him questions about material, shape, size, etc. You may find that the sails that CD has are spot on perfect, but you also may find that he has some suggestion you should consider when ordering. And finally, I found him less expensive than CD (or most other sail lofts) . . . . just say'in

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/08/2016 : 15:32:23

That's Gary Swenson--owner. http://www.ullmanventura.com/

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

hewebb
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Response Posted - 09/09/2016 : 04:21:18

Thanks Peter & Dave
I sent for quote
Howard

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/19/2016 : 21:08:48

I couldn't find a photo with the sheet trimmed all the way. This is as close as I could find. How's it look?

Edited by - sethp001 on 09/19/2016 21:14:08

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 03:37:49

The issue presented - better to sail with a new jib versus a blown out Genoa, as was said earlier, that is a difficult call. It's a question of just how stretched/blown out the Genoa is and what with some tweaking can minimize that pocket in the middle of the Sail. The concern with the Genoa in it's present condition is that while it may actually be faster to use it even blown out than using the new jib, I believe the tendency will be that when sailing a close tack, you will try to minimize the flapping/wavering of the center of the sail by easing off of your closest potential tack and that then is where the jib would prove more useful to maintaining a closer tack. Psychologically, we do not want be sailing with a sail that is not trimmed properly and that is what the Genoa will look like if trying to maintain a close tack besides not providing max speed. It's the trying to minimize the pocket flapping/out of trim condition that then has you falling off your most efficient tack. If not racing or trying to gain ground on a river effected by tidal conditions, one could live with semi-close tacking. There is also those that just want perfection and so knowing you have a blown out Genoa may be a deciding factor to only use the jib. depends on just how blown out is the Genoa.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

JohnP
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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 12:36:15

I did not know what you meant by "...I have the jib sheet cars are all the way aft when flying the genoa". The genoa track on the "newer" C25s seems to extend only part way back to the stern, as opposed to my "older" C25 which has a track all the way to the stern pulpit.

So in the beautiful photo it looks to me as if your sail is too large for the boat, since you may not be able to flatten the sail by moving the cars further aft. The sheet is at the wrong angle with the car in that position.

That's a surprise!

If that's true, then perhaps you could bolt on another piece of the 1" T-track on each side. I bet you could pick up those small pieces at a bargain price by calling Minnie's Yacht Surplus in Costa Mesa, or maybe at another chandlery like Bacon & Associates in Annapolis.

Am I seeing that track correctly? If that is the case, then others here must have had similar issues with 155% genoas!

Revised opinion: As opposed to what is shown in the photo, can you tell us what the sail looks like when you trim the sheet all the way in? I suppose you are saying that it is not flat under those conditions with the car positioned all the way aft.

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Edited by - JohnP on 09/20/2016 12:46:34

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 15:42:42

I could not see your photo on my work PC. Agree with John, something seems wrong from the photo - Looks like the Genoa is too long. I have a 150 Genoa and believe my tracks are similar to yours and I do not have my block all the way to the end of the track but perhaps I should. Nevertheless, my Genoa when fully trimmed, the shape is very close to my rail. On my old Genoa, the blown out condition was most noticeable in the center of the sail and not along the foot. Rcmd you get the Genoa evaluated or lay it down on the grass and take dimensions and compare to any stock 150 Genoa dimensions you may find on the web or talking to a sailmaker.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 16:39:26

Measure the foot of your sail. It should be between about 16 ft. 8 in. and 17 ft. 6 in. If it/s longer than that, it's clearly more than a 155% sail, and probably wasn't made for a C25. If it's within those parameters, you should be able to set the genoa cars a few inches forward of the winches, and trim the sheet in until the sail is relatively flat. The sail should rest inside the lifelines. You'll probably have to lift it over the lifelines.

It should look like the photo that I previously posted.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/20/2016 16:50:15

pastmember
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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 16:58:50

Not blown out.

Frank Hopper

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 19:45:24

[quote]Originally posted by pastmember

Not blown out.

Holy crap Frank - that's a great photo! Are you maintaining that course or rounding up into the wind? Serious question: is the C25 faster with the rail in the water?

Compared to your sails, I think my genoa and main are both blown out.

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 19:58:47

John, Larry, and Steve,

The PO told me that its a 150% genoa. He may or may not have been correct, but the sail does have the right sail number on it. The sheets seem in line with the photos Steve and Frank posted, just not trimmed tighter.

When I trim the genoa all the way, it's nearly on the lifelines. We always have had the foresail sheets outside the lifelines before the winches, and have never tried pulling the foresail inside the lifelines.

Now that its fall and good wind is coming, I'll try to pinch in decent wind and get a photo with the sheets trimmed tight. In the summer, the wind is so light that I have to ease the sheets to prevent the sails from stalling.

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 20:21:03

Seth, I don't think we can diagnose anything from that photo--probably because you're on a beam or broad reach there. Trimmed in as far as it can go, whether the sail is bagged out or not, one of three things will happen: The leech will be almost straight, the foot will be almost straight, or the clew will be at the car, with no sheet left to pull in.

The leech is straightened more by the car being forward--the foot by moving the car back. In moderate conditions, you want somewhat equal curvature in both. In strong wind, moving the car back should flatten the lower section of the sail and, due to less tension on the leech, lets the top of the sail "twist off" to reduce heel. In light air, moving the car forward pulls down on the leech more than back on the foot, powering up the sail from bottom to top.

Neither is happening in that photo, and the sheet can still be trimmed in quite a bit. So condition is hard to assess.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 20:45:07

Everyone, thanks for your input!

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 20:49:28

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Trimmed in as far as it can go, whether the sail is bagged out or not, one of three things will happen: The leech will be almost straight, the foot will be almost straight, or the clew will be at the car, with no sheet left to pull in.

The leech is straightened more by the car being forward--the foot by moving the car back. In moderate conditions, you want somewhat equal curvature in both. In strong wind, moving the car back should flatten the lower section of the sail and, due to less tension on the leech, lets the top of the sail "twist off" to reduce heel. In light air, moving the car forward pulls down on the leech more than back on the foot, powering up the sail from bottom to top.

Dave, thanks for this. When sailing in very light airs, it seems that have to let the genoa out more than seems appropriate to prevent it from stalling, which is what I was doing in this photo. I'm going to try moving the jib car forward next time to see if I can trim the sheet more without stalling the sail.

hewebb
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 04:55:28

I finally got around to ordering a new 150 from Ulman. I was asked to take the dimension from the swivel attach point down to the attach point above the drum.

Thanks Peter & Dave for the information about Ulman.

I guess I will have a used 150 for sale in the future.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 05:40:34

quote:
Originally posted by hewebb

...I was asked to take the dimension from the swivel attach point down to the attach point above the drum...

That's a tricky question, depending on your furler. If you have a "traditional" setup with a halyard restrainer on the mast, the measurement should be from the height where the swivel should end up to give the right halyard angle from it to the restrainer to prevent wrapping while still providing luff tension. That could be generalized as an angle bisecting the angle between a horizontal line and the angle of the forestay (pulling back and up). A CDI Flexible Furler is different.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2016 05:43:55

Bladeswell
Captain

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Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 07:52:18

Hello Everyone,

Just an observation from the photo. Is your Bimini mounted on the track and preventing you from moving the car further aft ? Also, could the sail be a drifter rather than a 150% ? Just wondering. Good luck with a solution.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

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