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Outboard Generator Killing Batteries?

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sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 17:16:10

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Take a look at the electrolyte levels again... If either is down again,even a little, you probably have some warped plates that are arcing between themselves, "boiling" off the water (actually, splitting it into hydrogen and oxygen gases), which is generally the result of some rapid and/or deep discharges. That battery is toast--no point in wasting electrons or anything else on it. And be careful not to make any sparks in its area.

In a battery that's in decent condition, you should never not be able to see the electrolyte. I'd replace at least that one. And if you have them wired together, or with a 1-ALL-2-OFF switch, you should replace both when either needs it--the batteries should match up in condition.

Thanks Dave - will do.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 17:24:01

quote:
Originally posted by islander

quote:
This may mean that the sulfate ions in the electrolyte have crystallized onto the lead plates

More likely the opposite. Putting 16V to the battery for an extended period of time is what happens in an equalizing phase. In an EQ phase higher voltage around 15-16V is put to the battery and gets the electrolyte/water bubbling/boiling and knocks the sulfates off the plates. An equalization is done to battery's occasionally maybe once or twice a year an can be beneficial. It is controlled by a set amount of time, Around 4hrs and monitoring the water level. In your case without a regulator you are simulating an equalization phase all of the time. This explains the large amount of water you replaced. It boiled away. Basically without a regulator your cooking the battery.
PS. Don't confuse an absorption phase with an EQ phase. If your battery charger has a EQ phase it has to be induced manually by pressing a button. It is never automatic and not all battery chargers have this feature.

Thank you for that insight Scott. Literally as I write this, I have my Miata battery connected to a power supply that puts out 16V at 1A because I couldn't get much current to flow at 12V. I'm hoping the 16V knocks some crystals back into solution and rejuvenates the battery. I have the caps off to monitor electrolyte level.

The manual for the PowerCharger on the boat states: "one hour every 12 days the charger automatically switches to absorption to keep the battery running properly and prolong its life span." Absorption is at 14.25V. Would you count that as an equalization phase or something else?

Edited by - sethp001 on 09/06/2016 17:27:55

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 17:26:50

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

[quote]I sold my C25 a couple of years ago and I sold the house behind the bridge a couple of months ago. So no more issues for me.

Maybe I should sell my house and C25! And live aboard a bigger boat in the Caribbean!

islander
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Response Posted - 09/07/2016 : 10:03:42

quote:
The manual for the PowerCharger on the boat states: "one hour every 12 days the charger automatically switches to absorption to keep the battery running properly and prolong its life span." Absorption is at 14.25V. Would you count that as an equalization phase or something else?

This was a good question so I did some searching. What I came up with is that some manufacturers of battery chargers use this method to de-sulfate the plates and to stir up the electrolyte. 14.25V is high enough to get the electrolyte to bubble/boil. Doing this every 12 days for 1hr seems to work well due to the fact that the sulfates haven't had time to harden and also minimizes water loss and you don't have to isolate the battery from your electronics.. It also makes de-sulphating/conditioning the battery automatic. I guess they can't trust us dummys to remember to do a true Equalization on our own.

Thanks Seth, I learned something new today.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/07/2016 10:16:39

Voyager
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Response Posted - 09/16/2016 : 17:02:57

Ok - so now I think my regulator is acting up. When the engine was running normally, the alternator generally delivered ~ 13.2 volts but recently, it started delivering 14.4 volts.
If I leave the boat and come back awhile later, my battery levels off to around 12.8v (neither charging nor discharging). I normally use my solar panel to keep the battery topped up.
So I don't understand why the regulator is running at bulk charge of 14.4V. I can order a replacement regulator if I decide to go out motorsailing any time soon.
The electrolyte looked fine in all six cells the other day. It's not down at all and I don't smell sulfur or see bubbling when the engine's running.
I'm just surprised that the voltage is running a little high.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 09/16/2016 22:51:28

islander
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Response Posted - 09/17/2016 : 05:16:16

Bruce, Its sounds normal to me. The regulator takes the 16v coming from the alt. and drops it to 14.2V. That 14.2v remains constant. Its the Amp output that gets regulated. On a discharged battery it will send out full amperage to the battery and as the battery gets closer to a full charge it will sense this and start to cut the amp output down. When the battery is fully charged it will then maintain it at a full charge. You will still have 14.2v but next to no amps. It would be better to have an Amp meter on the boat rather a Volt meter or better yet have both. Your volt meter is telling you the combined voltage of the alt. and your battery so if the battery is at 12.2 and the alt. is at 14.2 you get a reading somewhere in between. Bottom line is as long as when the engine is running you never see the voltage meter go above 14.2 and when the engine is off the voltage meter shows a fully charged battery of 12.8 your fine.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
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Response Posted - 09/17/2016 : 05:53:58

Thanks Scott. The other day I placed a full load on the charging system and battery by running the engine at mid-idle and turning on all my internal lights (one incandescent, the rest are LED), the FM sound system, the VHF, anchor, bow and running lights and my 120VAC 1500W inverter charging my laptop. The voltage dropped ~0.1-0.2 VDC with the engine running so the regulator and alternator seem to be fine. After I cut the engine the battery voltage held up well and read between 12.4 - 12.8 for about 5 minutes, then dropped closer to 12.4. I switched off the current draw from the lights and gear and the battery bounced back to 12.8+VDC. I do have a very old school +/- 40A ammeter I can put in line. I can check that.
The last time my regulator went out, I heard an engine whine on the audio and VHF radio. Not now. I guess I'll have a spare just in case.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/19/2016 : 21:44:41

Thanks Scott.

Report on the Miata battery:

16V seems to have brought it back to life. It holds a charge for a couple of weeks, starts the car, etc.

Report on the boat electrical:

I hooked the same 16V up to the dead deep cycle battery, which was also brought back to life. I need to figure out how to test reserve capacity with a load and my multimeter, or buy something that will.

It looks like the 16V has been the culprit for killing my electronics, not corrosion. So far it's four stereos and one VHF radio, and might explain frequent navigation light bulb burnout. On Sunday, it killed my new stereo - even heard the engine through one of the speakers when the stereo fried.

My outboard does not have a voltage regulator.

I called CDI Electronics. (Thanks Jeremy and Davy.) They were incredibly helpful and patient, but do not offer a regulator or regulated rectifier for my engine. They advised against using low maintenance or maintenance free batteries with my engine, especially deep cycles. Of course I have two low maintenance deep cycle batteries.

I think I'm going to buy this voltage regulator at the link below, mount it to the inside of the outboard housing and wire it between the generator and the starter switch so that the generator and starter switch are connected in parallel to the wiring back to the boat. That should do the trick, right?

http://www.autozone.com/starting-charging-and-miscellaneous-electrical/voltage-regulator/duralast-voltage-regulator/319661_0_0/?checkfit=true

Edited by - sethp001 on 09/19/2016 21:58:42

jduck00
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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 05:21:06

Nope, that's what I was thinking at first. You will need one built for a motorcycle. Their charging systems are more like outboards. When I get freed up this evening, I'll post a recommendation. You don't happen to know how many amps your outboard can put out do you?

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 07:58:09

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00

Nope, that's what I was thinking at first. You will need one built for a motorcycle. Their charging systems are more like outboards. When I get freed up this evening, I'll post a recommendation. You don't happen to know how many amps your outboard can put out do you?

Thanks. I cannot find that spec anywhere and am not at the boat to measure. One of CDI's testing procedures for their rectifier for my engine indicates using an ammeter capable of reading 15A. So the generator must put out less than 15A. Would you mind recommending something that can take 15A?

Voyager
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Response Posted - 09/20/2016 : 21:59:21

As I recall from my old Radio Shack Engineer's Notebook, you could create a very simple voltage regulator using a 15V zener diode biased with a 1k ohm resistor and a 100W NPN power transistor connected as an emitter follower. With a 0.6v drop between the base and the emitter terminals, the output voltage should be about 14.4VDC. Obviously this simple design doesn't handle the complex battery charging algorithms 3-stage chargers provide but it beats raw 16V from the alternator. An Arduino project could probably do a better job but I'll leave that design to others.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

jduck00
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 04:41:09

I did a bit of looking and pickings are slim on regulators only that would survive a marine environment. I believe you are going to have to go with a rectifier\regulator combo. I'm trying to find an accurate wiring diagram for your motor. BTW, the stater can put out 5A and the rectifier that is installed is good for 6A.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

jduck00
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 06:34:48

Seth. Need to confirm that your rectifier has 3 yellow wires. Looks like it may have a 3 phase open delta for the stator wiring...

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

islander
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 07:21:11

Wonder if its possible to use a solar panel charge controller say 10-15 amp rated. Connect the controller to the battery then connect the charge cable from the engine to the controller. Just a thought.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

jduck00
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 08:04:59

I was thinking the same thing Scott. There isn't much out there for stand alone shunt regulators that are waterproof. It looks like the stator is a 3 wire model and could be a 3 phase open delta for the connections. That's what I've been able to infer, but there's no information on it. Looks like Johnson uses a single phase stator in all of their rectifier\regulator models.

Not as easy as I thought to find a part to fix the issue. I believe that this one is electric start. Need to find something that will fit under the cowling and regulate between the rectifier and battery connection. I've found a few buck converters, but the losses on those just aren't worth it. I've found a few 3 phase rectifier\regulators, but no supporting docs on them. Will keep looking.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

islander
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 08:12:47

Thats why I suggested a charge controller as a possible solution. A good quality 3 stage controller might do the trick without having to modify the engine harness or splice in a generic regulator.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 15:28:22

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00

Seth. Need to confirm that your rectifier has 3 yellow wires. Looks like it may have a 3 phase open delta for the stator wiring...

Jeremy, yes, it does have 3 yellow wires.

Thank you for looking for me.

Edited by - sethp001 on 09/21/2016 15:28:43

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 15:35:20

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Wonder if its possible to use a solar panel charge controller say 10-15 amp rated. Connect the controller to the battery then connect the charge cable from the engine to the controller. Just a thought.

I think that would be perfect if I didn't have and want to keep electric start. I suppose I could disconnect the generator from the factory wiring harness, run another wiring harness for the generator, and connect the charge controller to the other end of the new harness by the electrical panel.

islander
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 15:56:26

Why would it affect your electric start? The charge wires are separate from your starter wires.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

islander
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 17:37:47

Hmm, Neither of these two circuits/cables should be connected to the fuse panel. They both run from the engine to the battery then a cable runs from the battery to the fuse panel to power the individual circuits.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 20:25:26

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Why would it affect your electric start? The charge wires are separate from your starter wires.

My engine's wiring harness has just two wires coming from the engine cowling. Inside the cowling, they are wired in parallel to the starter circuit and the generator circuit.

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/21/2016 : 20:42:19

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Hmm, Neither of these two circuits/cables should be connected to the fuse panel. They both run from the engine to the battery then a cable runs from the battery to the fuse panel to power the individual circuits.

I agree they should not connect to the fuse panel. They do not connect to the fuse panel. The engine's wiring harness runs to the battery isolator switch, which is mounted next to the fuse panel. The leads from the batteries run to the battery isolator switch. My battery isolator switch is mounted near the fuse panel.

I forgot some boats have the battery isolator switch mounted in a different location, and should have been more precise with my language. I've gotten into the habit of calling that entire section of bulkhead the "electrical panel" because the battery isolator switch, DC panel, DC negative bus bar, AC switch, AC bus bar, volt meter, bilge pump switch, "Arid Bilge" pump timer, and stereo are mounted there, with the battery charger and "Arid Bilge" pump mounted to the fiberglass beneath.

(Apparently I like to hang out in the dumpster.)

islander
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Response Posted - 09/22/2016 : 04:05:04

Ok Seth that clarifies it. Your right about assuming everybody's boat wiring is the same. I did not know you have an isolator switch. I don't have one. No electric start either. Still I don't understand how your motor can only have two wires servicing both the starter and the charge circuit.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/30/2016 : 18:45:43

UPDATE:

Automotive voltage regulators appear not to work on unregulated outboards due to a difference in their principle of operation. I cannot find a buck converter durable enough for this application.

So I'm going to try a Mastervolt DC Master 12V to 12V 6A converter for $100. Testing the engine, the alternator puts out approximately 5A at WOT. This converter will take up to 16V and convert/limit it to 13.6V. I'll run another set of wires to the engine for a new charging circuit (and to isolate the starter circuit from the charging circuit) and wire the new wires in parallel to the positive output from the rectifier on the engine so the rectifier can still deliver power to the power pack for the spark plugs.

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