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Outboard Generator Killing Batteries?

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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Initially Posted - 08/30/2016 : 12:30:57

I recently installed DC system monitoring equipment and was alarmed to see that when my outboard runs at WOT, the system goes to 16V. (I wouldn't normally run the motor at WOT for significant periods of time, but I did for hours while cruising recently because my throttle handle is loose so that the throttle turns itself down unless I twist it to WOT where there is a notch that keeps it there.)

My 3 year old lead acid battery died (won't go above 8V ) two weeks ago and the other seems to be less than 75% of its original capacity at 4 years old. I installed a temperature-adjusted charging system two years ago that is supposed to maintain the batteries, including periodic discharge. It runs on shore power and the boat is always connected to shore power when not away from the slip.

I normally isolate the older battery and use the newer battery. This means that when I've been running at WOT, only the newer battery that died first saw the 16V. When I discovered that the newer battery had died, I isolated it and started using the older battery.

I speculate that overcharging at 16V could have caused its quick deterioration? I also speculate that the 16V killed the older battery. If anyone has actual experience (not speculation) with something like this, I'd really appreciate hearing about it.

Is there a product I can put inline to prevent the voltage from going above 13V or so?

I haven't opened the service covers to see if all of the electrolytic solution has boiled off or evaporated.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 08/30/2016 14:10:50

offshoreaccount
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 13:59:30

an occasional spike to 16v on a lead acid battery doesn't seem like it would be enough to cause problems, given chargers come within a volt regularly.

Offshore Account, 1977 Hull #243. SR, SK

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 14:04:27

quote:
Originally posted by offshoreaccount

an occasional spike to 16v on a lead acid battery doesn't seem like it would be enough to cause problems, given chargers come within a volt regularly.

To add clarity to my post above, I'm not talking about an occasional spike. I ran at WOT for hours.

jduck00
Captain

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313 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 14:15:16

What kind of outboard do you have? It could have a voltage regulator as part of the charging system. If so, its toast. Charging voltage shouldn't go over 14.5V or so. If it doesn't have one there are aftermarket alternatives. http://www.cdielectronics.com/ makes a rectifier\regulator combo for about $100. You could always go cheap and get a regulator for an older car. Just have to look for externally regulated systems.

16V is definitely not battery friendly. If the battery is dry, it may be too late. I would still fill it back up and give a charge (out of boat) to see if it holds. That's just me and I tend to do things on the cheap side, well economical anyway.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Davy J
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Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 14:15:53

You didn't mention the make, year or model outboard. That info may be helpful. Most solar charge controllers regulate the voltage at 14.4 volts to prevent overcharging. I don't have any experience with this product, but from what I've read it may solve your problem:

http://www.cdielectronics.com/blog/regulated-rectifier/

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

sethp001
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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 14:18:26

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00

What kind of outboard do you have? It could have a voltage regulator as part of the charging system. If so, its toast. Charging voltage shouldn't go over 14.5V or so. If it doesn't have one there are aftermarket alternatives. http://www.cdielectronics.com/ makes a rectifier\regulator combo for about $100. You could always go cheap and get a regulator for an older car. Just have to look for externally regulated systems.

16V is definitely not battery friendly. If the battery is dry, it may be too late. I would still fill it back up and give a charge (out of boat) to see if it holds. That's just me and I tend to do things on the cheap side, well economical anyway.

Thanks Jeremy. That's very helpful.

sethp001
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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 14:24:21

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

You didn't mention the make, year or model outboard. That info may be helpful. Most solar charge controllers regulate the voltage at 14.4 volts to prevent overcharging. I don't have any experience with this product, but from what I've read it may solve your problem:

http://www.cdielectronics.com/blog/regulated-rectifier/

Thanks Davy. Its a 2001 Johnson 15HP two-stroke. The model number is J15TELSIB.

Davy J
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Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 14:35:50

I don't know if you can get their parts "selector" to work, because I couldn't, but they list a number of regulator/rectifiers for Johnson outboards. Hopefully it's a plug and play type install. The bad news is that your battery is probably DOA.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

jduck00
Captain

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313 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 14:45:58

Took a look at your outboard and it doesn't look regulated. All I saw listed was a rectifier assembly, part 37 on this drawing. http://www.boats.net/parts/search/BRP/JOHNSON/2001/J15TELSIB/IGNITION%20-%20ELECTRIC/parts.html

Ditto on the CDI parts selector. I would give them a call and ask which model to use. If you want to go the cheap route, I can draw up a diagram for a voltage regulator off an older Chrysler.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

islander
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Response Posted - 08/30/2016 : 16:12:55

Don't confuse cars with these little outboards. The rectifier is usually a rectifier and regulator in one solid state unit. Sounds like the regulator side of it has gone bad. This is assuming you don't have a battery issue.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

jduck00
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Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 06:16:39

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Don't confuse cars with these little outboards.

Very good point. I blame the rum :) You're right, I had alternator stuck in my head, not stator. So yeah, a voltage regulator for a car wont work. There are still some cheaper non marine options out there for shunt regulators. Mainly motorcycle parts. They run about a fourth of the price. <rant>Just throwing that out there. Paying for the word "marine" on a package irritates me to no end. Sometimes the cost is warranted, some times not. Like the $14 dollar fuel filter for my outboard. I small universal filter works just fine.</rant>

Yep, I agree with you that most of the time a rectifier\regulator combo is installed. In Seth's case, I believe he is going to end up having a rectifier only. That's what the parts lookup shows. Looks like Johnson was phasing out the rectifier\regulator to rectifier only on the small motors in that time range. Being that Seph only has the rectifier, replacing it doesn't get him any closer to a solution. He is going to need to add an aftermarket part to get the voltage regulated.

Rectifier\Regulator combo for that vintage
http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/brp/B-0584890.html

Rectifier only that is call for by his motor number
http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/brp/B-0584597.html

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 07:06:21

I think you are correct. It seems Johnson might have put only a rectifier on the engine. That would explain the 16v. And the cheaper cost of the part. My Honda rec/reg is well over $100. Well its easy enough to tell what you have by removing the hood and taking a look. If its round without heatsinks(fins) its a rectifier only

. If its rectangular and has heat sinks its a rec/reg.

If its a Rec. only you will need to convert it. IMO thats just cheep on Johnsons part.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 08/31/2016 09:17:21

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 07:36:34

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

...I installed a temperature-adjusted charging system two years ago that is supposed to maintain the batteries, including periodic discharge...

Interesting... How periodic? I've never heard that discharging a lead-acid battery was good for extending its life. I've only heard that past some point in its life (like 100-150 discharge/charge cycles), each cycle reduces its capacity. No?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
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Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 08:13:45

quote:
including periodic discharge..

I think he means a Equalization phase to get rid of the lead sulfate crystals that have collected on the battery�s plates.

quote:
each cycle reduces its capacity.

Yep as far as I understand it.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 08/31/2016 08:15:26

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 11:59:08

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

...I installed a temperature-adjusted charging system two years ago that is supposed to maintain the batteries, including periodic discharge...
Interesting... How periodic? I've never heard that discharging a lead-acid battery was good for extending its life. I've only heard that past some point in its life (like 100-150 discharge/charge cycles), each cycle reduces its capacity. No?

I'm going to blame the rum too. I was thinking it was like the battery in a laptop that gets killed prematurely if its not periodically discharged. That happens all the time when users leave their laptops on their desks always connected to power.

About the periodicity, it cycles for 1 hour every 12 days while the batteries are unused.

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 12:04:55

quote:
Originally posted by islander

quote:
including periodic discharge..

I think he means a Equalization phase to get rid of the lead sulfate crystals that have collected on the battery�s plates.

quote:
each cycle reduces its capacity.

Yep as far as I understand it.

I pasted some text from the manual below. The 4th paragraph discusses maintaining the batteries during prolonged periods of unuse, which does not discharge the batteries as I had written. Is that an Equalization phase?

quote:

The first step of the three step Plus charge system is the BULK phase, in which the output current of the charger is 100%, and the greater part of the capacity of the battery is rapidly charged. The current charges the batteries and gradually the voltage rises to the absorption voltage of 14.4V at 25�C / 77�F. The duration of this phase depends on the ratio of battery to charger capacity, and also on the degree to which the batteries were discharged to begin with.

The bulk phase is followed by the ABSORPTION phase. Absorption charging starts when the voltage on the batteries has reached 14.4V at 25�C / 77�F, and ends when the battery is completely full. Battery voltage remains constant at 14.25V at 25�C / 77�F throughout this stage, and the charge current depends on the degree to which the battery was initially discharged, the battery type, the ambient temperature, and so on. With a wet cell battery this stage can last four hours, with gel and AGM approx. three hours. Once the battery is 100% full, the PowerCharger automatically switches over to the float phase.

During the FLOAT phase the PowerCharger switches to 13.25V at 25�C / 77�F and stabilizes this voltage to maintain the batteries in an optimum condition. Connected DC-loads are powered directly by the charger. If the load is higher than charger capacity, the required additional power comes from the battery, which will be progressively discharged until the charger automatically switches back to the bulk phase. Once consumption decreases, the charger goes back to normal operation of the three-step charge system.

As the PowerCharger is equipped with a three-step Plus charge system, the batteries can also remain connected to the PowerCharger during prolonged periods of unuse. One hour every 12 days the charger automatically switches to absorption to keep the battery running properly and prolong its life span. The three-step Plus charge system is also safe for all the connected equipment."

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 12:06:21

quote:
Originally posted by islander

I think you are correct. It seems Johnson might have put only a rectifier on the engine. That would explain the 16v. And the cheaper cost of the part. My Honda rec/reg is well over $100. Well its easy enough to tell what you have by removing the hood and taking a look. If its round without heatsinks(fins) its a rectifier only. If its rectangular and has heat sinks its a rec/reg. If its a Rec. only you will need to convert it. IMO thats just cheep on Johnsons part.

Thanks Scott. There are no fins. I guess I'll be buying the upgrade sometime soon.

Edited by - sethp001 on 08/31/2016 12:06:48

sethp001
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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 12:08:31

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Don't confuse cars with these little outboards.

Very good point. I blame the rum :) You're right, I had alternator stuck in my head, not stator. So yeah, a voltage regulator for a car wont work. There are still some cheaper non marine options out there for shunt regulators. Mainly motorcycle parts. They run about a fourth of the price. <rant>Just throwing that out there. Paying for the word "marine" on a package irritates me to no end. Sometimes the cost is warranted, some times not. Like the $14 dollar fuel filter for my outboard. I small universal filter works just fine.</rant>

Yep, I agree with you that most of the time a rectifier\regulator combo is installed. In Seth's case, I believe he is going to end up having a rectifier only. That's what the parts lookup shows. Looks like Johnson was phasing out the rectifier\regulator to rectifier only on the small motors in that time range. Being that Seph only has the rectifier, replacing it doesn't get him any closer to a solution. He is going to need to add an aftermarket part to get the voltage regulated.

Rectifier\Regulator combo for that vintage
http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/brp/B-0584890.html

Rectifier only that is call for by his motor number
http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/brp/B-0584597.html

Thanks Jeremy!

Edited by - sethp001 on 08/31/2016 23:29:46

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 19:17:13

The "absorption phase" is the second on a 3-phase charger, generally to restore the last 20% of the battery's capacity at a lower voltage than the first, or "bulk" stage. If the charger is working properly, this stage should fade out as the battery reaches full charge.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2016 : 23:28:49

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

The "absorption phase" is the second on a 3-phase charger, generally to restore the last 20% of the battery's capacity at a lower voltage than the first, or "bulk" stage. If the charger is working properly, this stage should fade out as the battery reaches full charge.

For some reason that I do not understand yet, "to prolong the life of the batteries", it kicks back over to the Absorption phase for an hour every 12 days when the batteries haven't been used. I think this might be what Scott was talking about, but I'm not sure.

Edited by - sethp001 on 08/31/2016 23:31:08

sethp001
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Response Posted - 09/05/2016 : 18:54:17

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

I don't know if you can get their parts "selector" to work, because I couldn't, but they list a number of regulator/rectifiers for Johnson outboards. Hopefully it's a plug and play type install. The bad news is that your battery is probably DOA.

Davy, I just noticed your signature picks - you made the video on YouTube about lowering and raising the mast that I used to figure out how. Thanks for that video!

sethp001
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814 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2016 : 19:22:15

UPDATE:

I popped the caps on the batteries. In one battery, enough water had evaporated (or boiled off) that the metal plates were showing and I could see no electrolyte whatsoever. The other was low also but electrolyte was visible. Between the two, they took nearly a gallon of distilled water.

Here's a few things I think worth sharing:

1. Something good happened. A guy at the club told me he adds water to his boat's battery every year. And he's 78.

2. Nothing bad happened. In chemistry, you're taught to add acid to water and not the other way around to prevent boiling and back splashing. Adding water to a battery is adding water to acid. So I wore goggles, gloves, and long pants and sleeves, but got only covered in sweat instead of acid.

3. Something bad might have happened. The sides of the batteries did not get warm when adding the water. When adding water to acid, the acid gets hot. This may mean that the sulfate ions in the electrolyte have crystallized onto the lead plates, so the electrolytic solution is not very acidic anymore; and so the batteries may have deteriorated permanently to some significant degree.

4. Something good might have happened: The charger stayed in the Absorption phase for three hours afterward, and continued in that phase when I left, which is much longer than normal and indicates the batteries have a higher capacity. The battery that previously would not charge above 8V was above 10V when I left.

Probably points 3 and 4 will mean I'll get improved performance but not like new. I'll report back how the batteries appear when I return to the boat next week.

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 03:29:10

quote:
Davy, I just noticed your signature picks - you made the video on YouTube about lowering and raising the mast that I used to figure out how. Thanks for that video!

I wanted to make a more detailed video of the procedure but never got around to it. I sold my C25 a couple of years ago and I sold the house behind the bridge a couple of months ago. So no more issues for me. The downside, when needing to do some masthead work, I need to climb the mast. Believe me, I think it's easier to lower a C25 mast than to do the climbing.
Mastclimber

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 06:21:20

Take a look at the electrolyte levels again... If either is down again,even a little, you probably have some warped plates that are arcing between themselves, "boiling" off the water (actually, splitting it into hydrogen and oxygen gases), which is generally the result of some rapid and/or deep discharges. That battery is toast--no point in wasting electrons or anything else on it. And be careful not to make any sparks in its area.

In a battery that's in decent condition, you should never not be able to see the electrolyte. I'd replace at least that one. And if you have them wired together, or with a 1-ALL-2-OFF switch, you should replace both when either needs it--the batteries should match up in condition.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/06/2016 06:26:42

islander
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Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 06:39:40

quote:
This may mean that the sulfate ions in the electrolyte have crystallized onto the lead plates

More likely the opposite. Putting 16V to the battery for an extended period of time is what happens in an equalizing phase. In an EQ phase higher voltage around 15-16V is put to the battery and gets the electrolyte/water bubbling/boiling and knocks the sulfates off the plates. An equalization is done to battery's occasionally maybe once or twice a year an can be beneficial. It is controlled by a set amount of time, Around 4hrs and monitoring the water level. In your case without a regulator you are simulating an equalization phase all of the time. This explains the large amount of water you replaced. It boiled away. Basically without a regulator your cooking the battery.
PS. Don't confuse an absorption phase with an EQ phase. If your battery charger has a EQ phase it has to be induced manually by pressing a button. It is never automatic and not all battery chargers have this feature.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/06/2016 06:51:56

glivs
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Response Posted - 09/06/2016 : 11:29:58

Thanks for the post and the input from DavyJ (cdielectronics)....the same thing happened to me a couple of summers back. Normally we only motor short distances but did an extended trip that summer and ended up motoring home over a long day with a 25 year old Envinrude Yachtwin. After the trip I checked the battery only to discover the electrolyte/water was below the top of the plates in every cell...something that has never happened in 10+ years. I added distilled water, charged the battery and tried to use it that fall on an emergency generator at home but it would never hold a charge for long. I realize now that that vintage motor only had a rectifier on the assumption I guess that the alternator output was low enough not to be an issue.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

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