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C25 keel bolt leak

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SKS
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Response Posted - 07/21/2016 : 09:27:17

quote:
Originally posted by rbpc25

and of course I have no intention of doing this before fall haul-out

will drill and let dry over the winter

meanwhile, will torque tomorrow - see where she's at, how it feels, and how much she'll take before snugging up

gently does it

I had considered buying an early Catalina 25 that would require removing the wood stub and re-glassing it, so I did some research. Here is a link to a detail discussion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/2ec5ay/catalina_25_keel_how_bad_is_this/

Here is a drawing. Sorry, I still stink at posting pictures.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 07/21/2016 09:43:47

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/21/2016 : 09:57:39

cool, thanks

any idea what torque values are 'per schedule'?

I found C34 values at 35lbs to set 5200, then 105lbs final torque

assuming something similar but smaller

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

SKS
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Response Posted - 07/21/2016 : 10:59:49

quote:
Originally posted by rbpc25

cool, thanks

any idea what torque values are 'per schedule'?

I found C34 values at 35lbs to set 5200, then 105lbs final torque

assuming something similar but smaller

Only what I posted in your other thread. It was for a Catalina 22.

The torque values are based on the diameter of the stud, not the keel weight.
The bigger keel will have more studs holding it in place, not a higher torque value.
Catalina Direct has a kit to sister in stainless bolts to the iron keel.
Here is a link.
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1071
They have an extensive knowledge base. If you don't find the
information you need on their site, you can talk to their technical
people, they would be able to give you the correct figures.

******EDIT: Some more information that may be of some help.
Evidently, Catalina was not too particular when casting the iron
keels. They are, after all, not required as structural components
and just there for the weight. Consequently, don't be surprised at
any slag inclusions in the keel. This can make the drilling and
tapping procedure difficult where if you hit one of these inclusions.
I had a price of about $1,500 for two guys to perform the repair.
I was looking at a boat for around $3,000 that needed this and other
repairs. I would have wound up spending about $8,000 to get the boat
in good shape (cushions, new long shaft outboard, lines, electronics
etc). I opted for a 1986 with a diesel engine for $6,500. Even with
some upgrades, I feel I'm way ahead of the game.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 07/23/2016 07:58:05

GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/22/2016 : 11:59:34

I'd suggest you contact Catalina Yachts and get the info straight from the horses mouth.

Catalina Yachts Florida
7200 Bryan Dairy Rd
Largo, FL 33777
Phone 727-544-6681

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/23/2016 : 07:28:00

CD says 39 lbs, straight up

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/28/2016 : 17:59:27

no sign of 'Catalina smile' that I can find

(yes, I know she needs a bottom job)

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2016 : 11:09:36

Hmmm... I'm wondering whether I'm just looking at cracked paint or cracked encapsulation. The cracks appear to be almost all below the keel stub part of the hull where the softer encapsulation material begins. This could be the source of your water incursion.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 07/29/2016 : 11:34:00

This appears to be a smoking gun . . . . . Not to belabor a point, but, I still believe, no matter how "soft" muck is -- and I am a little familiar with Wellfleet's soft bottom -- that a boat will "pound" under certain wave conditions and damage could/will be done. If a hull like an Alberg design with no keel bolts just an encapsulated keel, you may have a chance, but keel bolts can amplify and focus the stress. Hope I am wrong, but . . . .

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/29/2016 : 12:17:38

OK, not sure what the smoking gun is, but I'll take your guys word for it
I was planning to strip the bottom and examine minutely this fall anyway
But is a smoking gun the alligatoring in the keel bottom paint? because that's been there since I bought it last fall
When I look up 'Catalina smile', I see an actual separation at the front edge of the keel from the stub
and Wellfleet bottom conditions vary widely, from an incredibly soft goo like quicksand that you sink into immediately, to a hard sand that holds an anchor or mooring very solidly
on a south west breeze, moored it in the bay, a boat can certainly pound on that hard sand - where I have her, it's soft enough that I sink up to my knee in places, and there's always some water even at dead low
i'm pretty conscious of the potential for pounding as the water goes out or comes in, and I always felt like she was in a good place, all things considered

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Edited by - rbpc25 on 07/29/2016 12:19:14

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 07/29/2016 : 12:18:10

What you see in the photo appears to be mostly accretions that are adhering to the antifouling paint. (dirt, crud, perhaps lime deposits, etc.) Most of it doesn't even look like cracks in the paint. They aren't structural.

If there's a "smile," that should be addressed, but the rest of it will be eliminated by a good bottom job.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/29/2016 12:20:55

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/29/2016 : 13:12:04

that is correct, Steve
I was actually surprised at how intact she is below the waterline
I had her at a slip for several weeks, sinking into that mud twice a day, which famously coats the boat bottoms with all kinds of mysterious deposits
She's getting a fresh bath in the cleaner bay waters now, and an airing twice a day
feeling pretty good about her condition, especially considering her purchase price
(also have a growing respect for the stoutness of construction � some of the fittings and choices were not optimal, but she can be retrofitted into a pretty capable cruiser with not too much investment)

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Sailynn
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Response Posted - 07/29/2016 : 18:56:01

The tuning comment on rigging is right on. The real test is sailing the boat and feeling if she sails like a dream. If she doesn't then do the opposite of what you did. All boats should be tuned individually because there are so many variables like weight, weight placement, sail conditions and age of fixed and running rigging (shrouds and sails stretch over time, height of mast, etc. I've owned six C25 and every one was tuned differently to make her sail like a dream. Mast rake and center of effort will be different on a swing, wing and fixed keel and so will tuning. It's a continuous process because it's a sailboat IMHO.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2016 : 20:58:11

Well, that trickle of water around the bolt is coming from somewhere, and is presumably getting into the wood before it gets into the bilge. If it's new, there may be little or no damage. If it's left for a while, there will be damage.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/30/2016 : 06:26:31

I fully agree, Dave
My plan is to strip her bottom in the fall
Worst case, I drop the keel, rout out the wooden spacer, and re-bed with a new insert and fresh glass
(any thoughts on material? Aluminum? Black locust? White oak? Marine plywood? steel??)
I am quite comfortable doing that

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/30/2016 : 07:07:38

quote:
Originally posted by rbpc25

I fully agree, Dave
My plan is to strip her bottom in the fall
Worst case, I drop the keel, rout out the wooden spacer, and re-bed with a new insert and fresh glass
(any thoughts on material? Aluminum? Black locust? White oak? Marine plywood? steel??)
I am quite comfortable doing that

I would suggest following the recommendations of the Catalina tech person who made the drawing posted above. In relevant part, it says: Laminate (3) layers of 1.5 oz mat and 24 oz roving alternately lapping up onto keel stub sides approx. 6"

Instead of replacing the existing wood with another piece of wood which is susceptible to rot, replace it with built up fiberglass layers, which will be much more resistant to moisture, even if it should get in there again.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/30/2016 07:11:47

islander
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Response Posted - 07/30/2016 : 07:23:33

All things aside.... That's a wild photo with all of the reflections!

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/30/2016 : 20:40:48

ty!

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2016 : 21:05:08

The added fiberglass is probably sound... You might also consider glassing in a composite core like Nida Core, a plastic honeycomb material that won't rot and has enormous stiffness and compression resistance. My transom, supporting a 600 lb., 225 hp. Honda on a bracket 30" behind the transom, is made of three 3/4" layers of the stuff. That bracket puts major stresses on the transom at 30+ knots or pounding through steep chop (windshield wipers running). The decks and bulkheads are all made with one layer, and are extraordinarily hard and stiff.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/31/2016 : 04:41:01

Dave, I was thinking along similar lines � there are composite panels, laid up of pre-preg epoxy and glass - E80 is one, I think � but yes, definitely want something to distribute the load, and don't want to count just on my own layers of glass
(for the record, black locust will not rot, and is the strongest wood in compression strength, although that is measured longitudinally, along the grain, not across it, flat, like a plank)
but a composite panel feels instinctively more appropriate - keep it simple

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Edited by - rbpc25 on 07/31/2016 04:45:25

OJ
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Response Posted - 07/31/2016 : 07:40:02

quote:

Love this shot from the international space station! More evidence of shrinking glaciers

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Edited by - OJ on 07/31/2016 07:46:34

OJ
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Response Posted - 07/31/2016 : 08:09:57

quote:
Originally posted by SKS

Thanks for sharing this drawing. I wonder why CD hasn't put together a collection of these types of drawings - selling them in a booklet of some form.

Edited by - OJ on 07/31/2016 08:12:38

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