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C25 keel bolt leak

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rbpc25
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86 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/15/2016 : 09:12:44

uh-oh

little bit coming in

how common is this?

can it be fixed by loosening nut, scraping out old ahdesive, re-caulking, and tightening up? (on the hard, of course)

thx

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 13:21:03

One consideration is there's a wood core under there. So I would start by trying to find the source of the leak on the outside--presumably it's some version of the "Catalina Smile", which is a horizontal crack on the front of the keel, some 8-10" below the bottom of the hull. That's where the lead keel is attached to the bottom of the sump (or "stub"), and then filled and glassed over. If the keel strikes something or maybe the wood compresses, the glass can crack around the forward edge, allowing water to get into the core and up the bolt. (This is more common with the older cast iron keels, which are not encapsulated.) You want to stop it out there. Once you're on the hard, I'd let it drain and start to dry out before sealing up the "smile". A couple of small test holes inside could tell you whether the wood is still sound or rotten. If rotten, one approach I'd look into is drilling more holes and filling with penetrating epoxy (like Git Rot)--especially in the areas around the bolts, but also in the forward and aft ends of the sump.

One thing that might help close a crack is, with the boat resting on the bottom of the keel, tightening the nuts on the keel bolts somewhat. I don't know how much torque is appropriate, but too much could crack the fiberglass inside the sump, due to the wood core under it. These are ideas--not directions.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/15/2016 13:30:34

islander
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 13:28:20

Uh oh is right...mmm You won't like what I have to say but I think you have a leak at the keel to stub joint. The problem is that there is a plywood plate sandwiched between the keel and the stub. If you just remove the nut and re caulk it will stop the leak into the bilge but won't stop the water from getting to the plywood and will eventually get soft and rotten. You have to look around the hull for the Catalina smile or a crack. UV

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 07/15/2016 13:31:26

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 13:35:47

thanks for the responses

I will start with torqueing down that foremost nut

does anyone know the torque value?

(I think on my Beneteau it was a lot - 2-to-300#s - I remember needing the 3/4" torque wrench...)

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 13:37:39

then, once I have her back on the mooring, I will be able to assess more fully
(we are hard and dry 2x a day in the bay - 14' tides - she'll be out of the water and visible)
I'll bet I find that smile

any way to know whether I have lead or cast iron?
sure felt like lead to me

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

islander
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 13:42:42

If your hitting bottom 2x a day then I would think that it might be the cause of your leak. Try a magnet.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 16:28:19

I would agree, but she's been in a slip all year - only one day resting gently over with the tide, in soft sand - that better not be enough to knock the keel loose!

Rolf in MA
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rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 18:01:38

24 hrs later, she has leaked this much:

what's that, about a tablespoon? she'll take a long time to sink at that rate, so thats a little bit of good news

on the other hand, the 2nd bolt aft, portside, is showing a little upper-lip Nixon flop-sweat:

can't do anything for 4 days - we'll see how she looks upon my return - any predictions on total accumulation?

(she's in the slip, so if she sinks, it'll just be up to her ankles in mud (at low water) (12' under at high)

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Edited by - rbpc25 on 07/15/2016 18:02:49

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 18:18:45

Islander and Stinkpotter: I'm not shy about dropping a keel - had to do that with my Beneteau last year - Sandy resue boat, needed a ittle-reglassing, and I took the opportunity to blast and glass the cast iron wing keel

now one question is: do I have cast iron, or lead?

almost sounds like cast iron is preferable, in terms of repair, b/c water is getting in between keel and bottom of stub, and wicking up keel bolt
so I could drop, dry, and r-bond with clean surfaces, and new 3M 5200 (or whatever Catalina recommends for keel bedding)

but if I have lead, sounds like I may have a breach in the encapsulating glass - in which case, I will need to: remove encapsulation around the joint, drop the keel, check/rebuild the ply core (has anyone replaced that core? with something more durable? like steel? aluminum? thick glass layup and big-ass washers?)

so I don't know what to root for - I prefer lead (and she feels like lead under my feet) - but the thought of dropping, rehabilitating the stub, and re-encapsulating the keel does not fill me with joy

Rolf in MA
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islander
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 18:44:20

This is just a guess but if the bolts and nuts are stainless it's a good chance the keel is lead. The early years used cast iron keel's and mild steel nuts and bolts. The change over was somewhere in the 80's.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 18:51:48

I have an '85 - and those bolts look pretty rusty...

Rolf in MA
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/16/2016 : 07:37:32

My 1985 was encapsulated lead, (still is, but she's not mine) and I believe a friend's lead C-25 was a 1984, so I'd say they were all lead by 1985. In your pix, the studs and nuts look rust-free, but with some black stuff and some white stuff (spray paint?) on them. Most of the original mild steel nuts and studs on the older cast iron keels look pretty decrepit.

You'll find the encapsulation is a thick layer of fibrous material, I'm guessing to fill it out to the same shape as the earlier cast iron. It almost seems like the asbestos they used to put on pipes. I can imagine that if the surface is damaged somewhere, water could migrate through the fibers to the keel joint, so a simple repair to the encapsulation may be all you need. (Note the equivocation here...)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/16/2016 07:46:46

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 07/16/2016 : 14:52:45

quote:
Originally posted by rbpc25

I would agree, but she's been in a slip all year - only one day resting gently over with the tide, in soft sand - that better not be enough to knock the keel loose!

Keel issues have so many "moving" parts. If your slip is questionably shallow enough that the above happened, then I can almost assure you that more times (how many? maybe daily or weekly or monthly -- but more often than you can imagine) than you think the keel is bumping off the bottom because of waves/swells as slight as they might be at the slip. Each time the keel bottoms out it is stressing the seam. The result of this over time is for a leak to form. It will only get worse.

My 1980 has horrible looking keel bolts and a slight "Catalina smile" which does concern me. However the bilge is dry. The only water that gets in is from above (fresh water) when it rains. No salt water and when there is no rain the bilge is absolutely dry. I also keep my boat on a mooring in water that is, even at the most slack tide, 5-6 feet deep under the keel. My point is that with little or no stress, even old cast iron keels with non stainless bolts that look terrible will not leak. Based on what you say, for your newer, what looks like excellent condition keel bolts, to be leaking like they(it) are(is) indicates that the keel may be bumping bottom on extreme low tide days and the stress is beginning to appear in the form of the leak.

I would fix the keel -- if it is a simple re-torque, fine, more severe, then do it -- AND I would change my slip ASAP to one in deeper water, or a mooring if need be, so to assure the keel is protected and does not inadvertently cause other structural issues.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 07/16/2016 14:53:48

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/16/2016 : 19:47:43

I just came across some articles saying that too much backstay tension could distort hull shape, causing separaton between hull and keel (i.e. bend the boat like a banana, and pull it off the rigid slab)

I've been playing with a lot of backstay tension, even at dock, because I was trying to follow other directions (stupid internet) about relative shroud/stay tension (most tension in fore+back stays, medium in the spreaders, and least in the lowers - is this crap? how does it even make sense with adjustable backstay??)

anyway, maybe I inadvertently peeled them apart
will release when I get home, re-torque (still searching for that value - apparently it's 105lbs on the C34), and see if she still leaks

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/16/2016 : 19:53:21

re: slip concerns:
we have very soft mud here in Wellfleet
any keel boats slide right down into it like a knife into hot butter
depending on the moon, we can have zero water at low tide, even dockside
and that muck is quite odiforous! all that organic matter, plus the extreme tidal shifts, are why we have such tasty oysters
anyway, not likely to be the cause of any keel issues
(but don't ask David at the Harbormaster's office whether the mud eats SS fittings and propellers
he'll talk your ears off)

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Edited by - rbpc25 on 07/16/2016 19:56:48

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 07/17/2016 : 14:57:11

Rolf:

6,000 lbs, more or less, hitting "soft" sand/muck will do more damage to a keel than any backstay tension. In our little cove a visiting O'day 272 with wing keel cracked the glass all around, taking water and sinking because it "borrowed" a mooring that ended up being only @6 inches more than the boat needed at low water resulting in it bouncing off the "soft" bottom which caused damage. Just saying . . . . . while ours are better built IMHO, I would still seek a deeper slip and/or mooring if at all possible.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/17/2016 : 19:21:13

bigelowp, you're not understanding what I mean by 'soft' - this is blurpy mud - no human can stand on it, you'd sink instantly - it is softer than quicksand - it is a slurry of bubbles and clam farts and goo - thare is no 'hitting' possible - this is our famous Wellfleet mud - it is a dirty puddle, only dirtier - I will send pics next time I am there - but sinking into this could not possibly have damaged this keel - it would hav to be tissue paper - but it was on the mooring last fall, on real sand, and laying over 2x a day - and, you're right, probably taking a bouncing on windy days - ah well, this is what fiberglassing skills are for - the bottom needed an overhaul anyway - as far as a deeper mooring goes, you hav to go a 1/2 mile out, and I'm not rowing my dinghy out there - my plan was 4 outrigger beaching legs, like a water bug, that let it come down gentle and vertical on the keel at low water - just didn't get around to making them last year - acquired the boat late September 2015

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

SKS
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Response Posted - 07/18/2016 : 07:03:43

I think they went to lead keels around 1983. If the bolts are Carbon Steel, then you have an iron keel. If the bolts are stainless, you have a lead keel.
The iron keel also has the wood core in the keel truck which degrades causing all kinds of issues. The Catalina Smile is one of them.
I have details on how to repair the trunk
Unfortunately, it's a drawing and I haven't been able to figure out how to attach photos to these posts. I could probably send it to an email address.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

JanS48
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Response Posted - 07/18/2016 : 19:50:10

Greetings
My 82 C25 Iron keel leaks about 4 oz per day, this is my 2nd year of ownership and it has remained constant. Even after heading out into the Atlantic for a good pounding. The previous owner said it leaked that way for the 10 years he had it. He had also installed a nice automatic bilge pump - works for me.

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

rbpc25
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/18/2016 : 19:57:35

whoa, 4oz is a lot - I gues I can afford a few more groundings, then :)

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/20/2016 : 16:26:58

so I returned from 4 days away, expecting to find significant water below

instead, I found that the tablespoon that had found its way in had dried up, and no more had intruded

not sure what this means - does the toxic Wellfleet sludgemud have some miraculous healing properties?

(bring your boats to the maritime Lourdes...)

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/20/2016 : 16:28:05

(I had *not* re-torqued)

Rolf in MA
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GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/20/2016 : 16:41:18

My guess is the wood in the keel stub absorbed water and swelled up enough to cut off the drip. If that's the case it's only a matter of time before the stub rots out.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/20/2016 : 19:47:36

that's a pretty good guess

crap - I hate good guesses

ok, so let's assume that's true: what's the real fix?

has anyone ever removed the plywood insert, either by de-laminating the bottom of the stub or the bilge? (ugh)

or is the only option to drill a bunch of holes, let it dry out, and pour penetrating epoxy in there?

assuming that's the move, presumably you'd want to reinforce the stub - what's the best practice there? extra glass inside (bilge) or outside (stub), or both?

thanks for any thoughts

(anyone done this and documented?)

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

rbpc25
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Response Posted - 07/20/2016 : 20:12:18

and of course I have no intention of doing this before fall haul-out

will drill and let dry over the winter

meanwhile, will torque tomorrow - see where she's at, how it feels, and how much she'll take before snugging up

gently does it

Rolf in MA
C25 #4959

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 07/20/2016 : 21:13:34

quote:
Originally posted by rbpc25

I just came across some articles saying that too much backstay tension could distort hull shape, causing separaton between hull and keel (i.e. bend the boat like a banana, and pull it off the rigid slab) I don't know if too much backstay tension can cause separation of the hull and keel, but it can cause lots of other structural damage.

I've been playing with a lot of backstay tension, even at dock, because I was trying to follow other directions (stupid internet) about relative shroud/stay tension (most tension in fore+back stays, medium in the spreaders, and least in the lowers - is this crap? how does it even make sense with adjustable backstay??)

If you take one aspirin, it's good for you. If you take three aspirins, it must be three times as good. That logic doesn't work in medicine, and it doesn't work with a backstay adjuster. A backstay adjuster on a masthead rig boat (C25) doesn't make the boat point higher or foot faster than a boat without a backstay adjuster. The benefit that you get from a backstay adjuster is that you can instantly change the tuning of the rig from a loose rig, for sailing off the wind and in light air, to a taut rig, for sailing to windward and in stronger winds. Nothing good comes from cranking the backstay adjuster down hard.

If you didn't have a backstay adjuster, you'd have to tune the boat for all-around purposes. It would probably sail well to windward, but in light air and downwind, it would be slow. A backstay adjuster lets you sail well to windward, and then, when you turn downwind, you ease the backstay adjuster, loosen the rig tension, and it lets you sail well downwind, too.

When the backstay adjuster is tensioned, the forestay should be reasonably taut, with no appreciable sag. The forward lowers should be taut. The aft lowers should be slightly loose when the adjuster is eased, and should become fairly taut when it's tensioned. The uppers should be sufficiently taut so that they only slightly relax when under sail, closehauled, in 10-15 kts of wind. When the adjuster is eased fully, the forestay should be, well, loosey-goosey.

[I know this is somewhat off topic, but Rolf mentioned it because he's obviously concerned that over-tensioning his backstay might have caused his keel bolt problem. It might help him to know how to tension it properly.]

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/20/2016 21:15:34

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