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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

The cunningham

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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/15/2016 : 08:31:25

Hello All,

Yesterday I finally got around to removing my main sail from its bag for examination. Wow, the sail maker,(Yager) did a beautiful job. and luckily for me it does have two sets of reef points. However, it does not have a cringle for a cunningham. Is it ok to hook a cunningham into a reef cringle at the luff or should it have its own ? Thanks.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2016 : 09:22:14

A cunningham should have it's own cringle, usually about a foot above the boom. It's purpose is to increase tension on the luff when the wind has increased. Using a reef cringle would let you increase tension on the luff above the reef cringle, but it would still be too loose below it.

Most serious racers would want a proper cunningham, for it's ease of use, but a cruiser or casual racer can get by without one, especially on a 25' boat. If the wind increases and you want to increase luff tension, you can do so by using either the mainsail halliard or mainsail downhaul. That will serve the same purpose. It just won't be quite as convenient.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2016 : 13:45:45

Yup--the downhaul from the sliding gooseneck will essentially do it, and you could even lead it back to the cockpit if you want quick control.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Bladeswell
Captain

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490 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2016 : 15:34:53

Thanks guys,

Not being a racer I guess I can do without it. So, the boom down haul. Is it another block system that goes from the gooseneck to the mast plate ? One more piece of rigging I need to get. I had not thought of that one yet. yeah yeah, just green as can be. LoL.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2016 : 16:10:55

Later year models like my 87 have a fixed boom. No Cunningham No down hauls. Luff tension is done by the main halyard only. I don't race so for everyday general sailing its been perfectly adequate. Not having more lines in the cockpit is a plus.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2016 : 16:12:43

The factory stock downhaul on the older C25s consisted of a piece of line attached to the bottom of the boom at the gooseneck. There was a small cleat attached to the mast, beneath the boom. The line was simply attached to the cleat. There were no blocks. The line simply held the boom down. When raising my mainsail, I raised it all the way to the top of the mast, and then pushed down on the boom until the luff tension was as taut as I wanted it, and then cleated the downhaul line.

Alternatively, you could cleat the downhaul line before raising the sail, and then raise the sail with the halyard until the luff tension is correct. Either way works.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/15/2016 16:13:42

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2016 : 17:44:41

This is just my opinion but you can lock your boom inplace with 2 track locks and get rid of the downhaul. You might already have one track lock below the gooseneck that keeps the boom from sliding down when you lower the sail. You just need to add another one above the gooseneck to lock the boom.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Bladeswell
Captain

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490 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2016 : 08:37:42

Hi Scott,

As it happens, my boom is sitting on a sail stop. Thanks again everyone.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2016 : 12:56:12

The cunningham and downhaul tension aren't the same thing. The cunningham is pulling down on the sail cloth, while the downhaul tension is pulling against the bolt rope in the luff of the sail. If your sail is getting a bit tired the cunningham is very useful.

Downhauls are a way to avoid having a halyard winch for the mail halyard, because they allow you to tension the bolt rope with your body weight or a small block and tackle.

The cunningham is useful but not essential.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
Express 37 "re-Quest"
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra"

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2016 : 14:35:53

They aren't the same thing, but they perform the same function, i.e. they both pull the wrinkles out of the sailcloth along the luff. Here's a photo of a CS40 that I crewed on for 3 years. The wind freshened after the sail was raised, pulling wrinkles into the luff. The cunningham was used to pull out the wrinkles.

Some skippers use the cunningham to do that. Another skipper I crew for, on a Beneteau First 407, uses the halyard instead of the cunningham to pull wrinkles out of the luff. As you can see, the cunningham leaves the lowest part of the sail with deep wrinkles. Many racing skippers believe those wrinkles are insignificant. Others, like my friend who who uses the halyard to remove wrinkles in the luff, believe it is wasted sail area.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2016 : 15:40:37

Catalina have their stock sails built with a pocket/baggy area in the lower section of the sail just above the boom. I guess its for light wind sailing and to try and make an all around sail. To me by tightening a Cunningham when the wind pipes up just increases that baggy area as in your photo. This seems to me to be counterproductive when the idea is to flatten the sail. Tightening the halyard seems to be a better solution no?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2016 : 16:32:33

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Catalina have their stock sails built with a pocket/baggy area in the lower section of the sail just above the boom. I guess its for light wind sailing and to try and make an all around sail.

"Back in the day" (before the advent of loose-footed mainsails) most mainsails that were made with an attached foot had a moderate curve in the foot, but not really a deep pocket. Here's a good photo of a shelf-footed mainsail. They were popular among serious racers, and were really good in light air. As you can see, they had a pocket that was deep enough for the ship's cat to nap in. Stock C25 sails were not nearly so deep pocketed. In order to flatten the foot of a shelf-footed mainsail, the sail had to be equipped with a flattening reef.

quote:
To me by tightening a Cunningham when the wind pipes up just increases that baggy area as in your photo. This seems to me to be counterproductive when the idea is to flatten the sail. Tightening the halyard seems to be a better solution no?

The mainsail on the CS40, above, isn't baggy. The luff and foot are both very flat, but the sail does have wrinkles that are caused by the cunningham.

There are two lines of thinking about that - some use a cunningham and some use the halyard. Based on my observations on the race course, most racers use a cunningham to take the wrinkles out of the luff.

It might seem counter-intuitive for the reason you stated, but think about the bigger picture. In light to moderate winds, your goal is to maximize sail power. When the wind pipes up, the boat is starting to heel excessively and you need to begin reducing the sail power by flattening the luff of the sail and flattening the foot. If the cunningham causes a little wrinkling in the foot of the mainsail, that's ok, because it contributes to the de-powering of the mainsail. Keep in mind that the mainsail contributes far more than the jib to excessive heeling, so, reducing it's power is a plus in strong winds. Taking the wrinkles out of that sail in strong winds will increase the sail's power which is the opposite of what you need to do.

I think the best way to do it is to use the halyard to adjust the luff tension in light to moderate winds, and to use the cunningham in stronger winds. In light to moderate winds, your goal is to maximize sail power, In stronger winds, your goal is to reduce sail power.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/16/2016 16:40:20

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2016 : 05:49:43

saw this on ybw.com. makes sense.

"Racing rules generally allow sails set from black band to black band on the spars.
Cunningham allows more luff tension without exceeding the permitted luff length, yet still presenting the max sail area when the tension is off."
[url]]http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?90936-Cunningham-amp-or-Halyard-Tension#ww8lBxz4OJ8mVugc.99 [/url

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2016 : 06:28:49

Hello Again,

Wow, I didn't expect to see so many interesting and educational replies to this post. I guess you never know what interest a given post will provide. Thanks again everyone.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2016 : 09:42:12

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

They aren't the same thing, but they perform the same function, i.e. they both pull the wrinkles out of the sailcloth along the luff. Here's a photo of a CS40 that I crewed on for 3 years. The wind freshened after the sail was raised, pulling wrinkles into the luff. The cunningham was used to pull out the wrinkles.

Having the main halyard or downhaul pull against the luff bolt rope does make for a fundamental difference compared to using the cunningham. The bolt rope doesn't stretch very much compared to the main sail (and also stretches at a different rate as the sail ages), so lots of halyard tension can just be fighting against the bolt rope instead of tensioning the luff of the sail. An older dacron sail can get better shape using the cunningham than you can with luff tension because of this (it won't make the sail like new, but it does help).

On my own boat I use halyard tension as the main way to control the location of the draft, but will play the cunningham in high winds or as the wind changes.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
Express 37 "re-Quest"
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra"

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2016 : 10:41:21

quote:
Originally posted by awetmore

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

They aren't the same thing, but they perform the same function, i.e. they both pull the wrinkles out of the sailcloth along the luff. Here's a photo of a CS40 that I crewed on for 3 years. The wind freshened after the sail was raised, pulling wrinkles into the luff. The cunningham was used to pull out the wrinkles.

Having the main halyard or downhaul pull against the luff bolt rope does make for a fundamental difference compared to using the cunningham. The bolt rope doesn't stretch very much compared to the main sail (and also stretches at a different rate as the sail ages), so lots of halyard tension can just be fighting against the bolt rope instead of tensioning the luff of the sail. An older dacron sail can get better shape using the cunningham than you can with luff tension because of this (it won't make the sail like new, but it does help).

On my own boat I use halyard tension as the main way to control the location of the draft, but will play the cunningham in high winds or as the wind changes.

I agree with regard to an old sail, but in that case, the sail is overdue to be replaced. When you tension a cunningham, something has to give. Either the slides have to move, or the sailcloth has to stretch. If the slides don't move, then the old, stretched-out sailcloth has to stretch even more. It's a matter of time until the cloth tears.

Even with a new laminated racing sail, you often can't increase either the halyard tension or cunningham tension in strong wind, when the sail is heavily loaded. If you try to tension the luff when the sail is heavily loaded, the slides won't move. In that case, you have two alternatives. You either have to wait until the next time you tack, and adjust the halyard or cunningham during the tack, when the sail is unloaded, or you have to unload the sail by dumping the mainsheet, and then adjust the halyard or cunningham, and then re-adjust the mainsheet.

Generally, it sounds like we're saying about the same thing. We both usually adjust halyard tension, but use the cunningham in stronger winds.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2016 : 10:10:00

Here's a link to an excellent post on the use of the cunningham. Especially read post #7 by RichH.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/254858-main-downhaul-vs-halyard-tension-vs-cunningham.html

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2016 : 18:18:34

With my brand new main and slippery sail slugs I get the perfect tension using the halyard. My sail is loose footed which really helps as it is not adversely affecting the overall shape only the luff tension. I have a Cunningham rigged to the cockpit and it helped a lot with my old baggy shelf footed sail as it was the only way I could get the wrinkles out, now I use that line for reefing as it is not really required anymore.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

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