Association Forum - Fuel Tank and AC in the Dumpster, Opinions?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Fuel Tank and AC in the Dumpster, Opinions?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

jduck00
Captain

Member Avatar

USA
313 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/20/2016 : 04:52:37

Morning Fellows,

I've got an idea in my head, but wanted to bounce it off a few of you guys.

First, I'm installing a permanent fuel tank in the dumpster just in front of the little shelf that the outboard tank used to sit on. I never liked the idea of a fuel tank that is designed to go on the deck being installed below. The tank meets all current codes and is being installed to meet USGC regs. I can upload some pictures when I get back from the boat today.

Okay, so half my dumpster is used. I am toying with the idea of putting a window unit in the other half. The dumpster is already vented. I might have to add a blower fan to get the air flow up a bit, but that's no problem. The reservation that keeps sitting at the back of my mind is that I will have an AC unit sitting next to 14 gallons of fuel. The practical side says that I can't find any restrictions on installing equipment next to a properly mounted fuel tank and that fuel tank does have a 2 minute fire rating.

If the fuel tank ever leaks, I'll have bigger issues than the AC unit. It would just be the first of many ignition points. The whole point of the permanent tank is to drastically reduce that likeliness of the scenario ever playing out.

Thoughts?

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2016 : 07:48:51

If I did do something like that, I wouldn't, I would create a separate, closed compartment for the fuel tank with its own active ventilation system within the dumpster. It doesn't take liquid gasoline, just vapor to make a big bang.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2016 : 09:12:29

I'm totally quizzed by this... with our boats and our miserly outboards, why would you need ~20 hours of fuel on board?
A five gallon tank will fit perfectly in the fuel locker. And you can keep a second tank stowed safely in the aft part of cockpit.
When you install the tank in the dumpster, how do you plan to run a filler pipe out to the exterior of the hull?
If instead you have to open the hatch to pull the gas dispenser nozzle down to fill the tank, it's just a matter of time before a few ounces of gas drip out of the nozzle down below.
That few ounces will vaporize below in the confines of the locker, then flip a switch on the electrical panel and ka-boom!
Sayonara Lucky Duck I'm afraid.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

jduck00
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2016 : 12:22:00

I'll start with the why and get to the how. There is a reason behind my fuel leak paranoia. A boat at the sail club back in Arkansas burned to the water from a gas leak. Don't know the particulars on what leaked other than it did and almost killed the fellow and burned until it hit the water line.

The tank that came with the boat when I got it was shot. It was an older metal tank that was about rusted through. I got an Attwood above deck outboard tank and put it back in the same place. Keep in mind that this setup has served me for three years, but has always been a worry. The new tanks aren't vented so this thing went from a nice rectangular tank to more of a football shape. I know they pass all sorts of testing, but these new tanks are thin and I didn't trust it not to burst one day. When I pulled it out last week, there were signs of seepage around the fuel outlet fitting. Besides my mistrust in the newer tanks, the simple fact is it wasn't designed to go below deck.

So, last year I started planning to replace the tank with a permanent below deck tank. The size is more about whats available, than wanting more capacity. They start at about 12 gallons and go up in size from there. I've installed a deck fill plate, a vent, and working on the fuel line now. The entire install is USGC compliant for a below deck installation. There is no fuel venting inside the boat. There is permeation through the hoses, but not enough enough quantity to ignite. As best I can tell between the USGC and ABYC regs, the space the tank is installed in does not need to be vented. Its great that it is, but not required. Feel free to correct me if I'm off on that. I forgot to take some pictures while I was working on it today, but I'll get some uploaded soon. That should clear up how I'm doing it.

When properly installed, there will be no fumes to ignite. So no restrictions on wiring and equipment around the fuel tank. At least that's the way I read it. The little nagging thought about putting the AC down there is, what if it does leak? That's my big hold off right now and has me looking for another space for the AC. Although, I believe it would technically be legal to install it next to the fuel tank, I don't believe it would be a good choice. But... that space is the perfect area for it. Looking for differing interpretations of the regs if I'm way off on that.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Edited by - jduck00 on 03/20/2016 12:24:28

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2016 : 13:37:13

I think I understand your concern. On the outside chance that there is a fuel leak, then installing the AC in the same space might constitute an ignition source.

What kind of AC do you intend to install? If it's a casement AC of the type usually installed in a window, then the part of the AC unit that will be inside the dumpster would be the part that is outside the window, and subject to rain and snow. I don't know for sure, but it would be logical that AC manufacturers put all the electrical components in the other end of the AC, where the switches and controls are located, and where the electrical components are out of the weather.

If you're installing a Marineair, or similar, then all the electrical components would be inside the dumpster. That would be more of a concern, having electrical components in the dumpster.

But there's a basic question here. You're concerned that a fuel leak combined with an ignition source would be dangerous. That's true, but to put it in perspective, that's also true of your home. How do you deal with the possibility of a gas line leak developing in your water heater, for example, and having the gas forced air furnace situated right next to it? There are always some risks that we consider unavoidable, and others that we consider unacceptable.

I think the solution is to install everything in accordance with all applicable codes. That ensures that it will meet the most stringent and modern safety standards. Then, I'd treat it the same way one treats an inboard gasoline engine. I'd install a blower to blow any stray fumes out of the dumpster, and I'd follow a similar protocol as is recommended for a gas inboard engine, including sniffing the dumpster for fumes and turning on the blower 5 minutes before starting the AC.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

wanderer13
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2016 : 16:18:12

14 gallons?! You must motor a lot. Echoing the others, I would be most worried about vapors from the fuel tank and ignition sources, particularly from the electrical panel.

The A/C will likely be really noisy and a huge power hog - really only good for pier side. Moisture will be an issue and I would anticipate significant condensation. Furthermore, you should consider the A/C condenser - where will it drain? Into the bilge? What separates the quarter-berth from the lazarette (dumpster) on your boat? Is it 1/2 inch plywood? If so, vibration will be a problem if you install the A/C onto it.

Interesting modifications. Please post pictures.

1981 Catalina 25 FK/TR

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2016 : 20:58:40

Why not just set at at the forward hatch with a shroud when dockside?

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

jduck00
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2016 : 03:07:34

That's what I'm going to end up doing, but didn't really want to. I don't have a dock box at the marina, so its one more thing store down below. If I could find it a permanent home, I would have liked that much better. For now, I'm just going to stick in in the front hatch and keep my eyes open for a water cooled unit. I might change my mind after the new fuel system as been vetted, but for now I'm going to hold off on installing it in the dumpster.

I thought about converting the window unit to a water cooled condenser, but I can't get a local HVAC shop to touch it. I've got a spot picked out if I run across a marine AC for a decent price.

Also, the 14 Gallons will be nice, but not the reason for this project. I did all of this to get away from having a cheaply manufactured above deck fuel tank installed below deck. There's a reason for all regulations when it comes to fuel systems and my old boat wouldn't come close to meeting any of the current ones.

Here's a few pictures I took of where I'm at now. I have the major components installed, but still need to get the fuel pump and water separator hooked up. I'm going to replace the vent that I installed. It was either a bad design, or just a bad part. The barbs where oversize and I couldn't get to hose pushed on far enough to get two clamps on it.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2016 : 16:36:01

Jeremy...I recognize you are planning to install a water separator, but I would also be extra vigilant in treating your fuel, e.g. With Stabil or similar, and keep track of the age of your fuel. With an open vent you may very likely realize some condensation if the gas sets any length of time. Keep us posted on your efforts.

Edit: What are what appear to be table latches near the rub rail in your last pic for?

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Edited by - glivs on 03/26/2016 16:38:15

jduck00
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2016 : 16:59:02

I have no idea. they came with the boat and I've never bothered to remove them.

I'm hoping fuel age wont be much of an issue, but good point. I burn about 2 gallons every time I go out. Its 3 miles to the end of the channel and depending on tide it might be another mile before I can drop the keel. I'm not normally gentle on the throttle :) I'm ready to get out and get the sales up.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2016 : 21:31:41

They look like the horizontal clips I have on the coming for a much better boarding ladder. I only used the original ladder to get on the boat in a parking lot, roadside a couple of times. Now that I have one of those offensively long trucks I can climb aboard from the bed.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

jduck00
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2016 : 09:08:29

Thought I would follow up now that I've had the tank in use for month or so. The tank does great. No smell on the boat at all. The original passive vents do a great job of keeping the air changed in the dumpster. I did get a chance to really use that extra capacity. We motored about 45 miles last weekend. The first day we needed to go directly downwind in 5-8 knots of wind and had a schedule to keep. Motor sailed where could but motored most of the way. We put the sails up but couldn't make more than 2 knots or so just under sail. For the trip home we were going into the wind but only has 2-3 knots... So more motoring. Overall, we burned a bit over half a tank of gas, ~8 gallons.

Still don't think I'll shove the AC in next to it. We stayed on the boat last weekend. Took the AC with us but didn't need it. I'll see how the summer months go, but I might be overrating the need for AC. I'm betting when its in the 80s at night I'll be wanting it.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2016 : 11:53:58

One thing about the SS fuel fill. Since it is metal I believe it has to be grounded so you don't blow yourself up from a static spark when you or the fuel dockhand inserts the fuel nozzle

A plastic fill would solve that. Honestly I'm not sure the passive vents are good enough if you install an AC unit that is not ignition protected with a permanent below deck tank in the same compartment. You may need a blower.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/13/2016 13:25:50

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2016 : 12:03:08

quote:
We stayed on the boat last weekend. Took the AC with us but didn't need it. I'll see how the summer months go, but I might be overrating the need for AC.

Last weekend was a rare event for Florida in May.

Gulf Coast, summer, lows in the mid eighties, 88% humidity, possibility of being holed up in the boat during an afternoon thunderstorm........

No, no you are not overrating the need for A/C......

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.