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andbarger
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/12/2014 : 09:24:14

Christmas came early! New mainsail arrived yesterday, now I just need it to be spring so I can put the boat back in the water. The new one make the original one look like tissue paper!

Edited by - on

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 09:45:13

do tell. details on the sail.

Edited by - on

andbarger
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 11:13:16

Bought it online from *** took about 4 weeks from order to delivery. It's for my 1984 tall rig and includes all the extras at no additional cost. It's a 6.2oz material with standard battens and velcro pockets, sail bag, draft tape, aluminum headboard, slugs, sewn on telltales, 1 reef point, and cunningham. I looked it over and looks to be very well built. I can't wait to use it this season!

Edited by - on

andbarger
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 11:15:34

Sorry I don't know why but it won't let post the name of the company.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 11:26:40

quote:
Originally posted by andbarger

Sorry I don't know why but it won't let post the name of the company.

Ahh, the web forum police . . .

Edited by - OJ on 12/12/2014 11:26:59

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 11:46:46

quote:
Sorry I don't know why but it won't let post the name of the company.

This came up a couple of weeks ago in the C250 forum. Apparently the answer lies here:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24314

Looks like a "sailmaker" threatened so sue the association.

Edited by - Davy J on 12/12/2014 11:49:55

andbarger
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 11:50:07

Well that explains it!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 11:51:10

quote:
Originally posted by andbarger

Sorry I don't know why but it won't let post the name of the company.

That company complained when a number of our members posted comments that were highly critical of the company. They threatened to sue the association, so the association decided to disallow any comments that mention the name of the company, regardless of whether the comments are favorable or unfavorable. If you got a good deal from them, consider yourself lucky. According to many reports, not everyone fared as well.

Personally, I don't think our association should allow only favorable comments about the company, and prohibit the horror stories of people who were mistreated by the company. One-sided comments would mislead our members by only telling them half of the story. If the company is willing to allow unfavorable comments by our members, as well as favorable ones, then our officers should consider removing the block that prevents the mention of the company's name. I have never dealt with the company, but am familiar with the company's history, and don't expect that the company will be willing to allow our members to hear the bad, as well as the good about them.

The ball is in the company's court. They threatened to sue us, and this is the compromise that we reached to mollify them. If they want to change the agreement, it's up to them, but the association isn't in the business of misleading our members with one-sided comments.

Edited by - on

andbarger
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 12:19:23

I did my research on this company and like most I found some history. But when I called and talked to the sales rep about the issues he explained everything that had happened. I had a good experience with them, the price was right, they answered all my questions right away, and I got my sail in the time I was told. I plan on using them again for a new head sail.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2014 : 14:55:01

Members are free to do business with whomever they wish. The Association simply provides a forum where members can freely express their opinions and recount their experiences in dealing with different companies. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only company, out of all the companies that our members have discussed, both favorably and unfavorably, that has complained about the comments of our members. This is the only company that has threatened the association with a lawsuit if the association didn't limit our members from discussing it freely. The association didn't make this rule. The company imposed it on the association under threat of a lawsuit. If anyone doesn't like the rule, they should complain to the company. I have no doubt that the association would vacate the rule, if the company would release the association from it's agreement, and hold the association harmless for any negative comments that might be made in the future by it's members.

It should go without saying that the opinions that are expressed by our members about any company are the members' own opinions. They are not the opinion of the Association. It is not the purpose of the association to approve or disapprove of any business. Any member who intends to enter into a high-dollar business transaction with any company ought to investigate the company online, regardless of any opinions or anecdotes that have been recounted by any of our members. Anyone who finds negative input and chooses to ignore it does so at his own risk.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2014 : 16:58:04

Well, in the Christmas spirit, maybe this guy has turned his act around and is now providing a guality product on a timely basis. More orders handled properly will tell the tale, and could resolve the issue. Personally, I hope YES!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2014 : 17:17:24

Hope springs eternal, but we won't really know if he has truly reformed as long as he only allows us to hear one side of the story. The Association apparently agreed to not mention the company name, either good or bad, and the association is legally bound to abide by that agreement. If our members are allowed to only discuss the good transactions, but prohibited from discussing the ones where they either didn't get what they paid for, or were cussed out by the owner, then that gag rule creates a false impression among our members. The association should not allow itself to be ill-used by any company to maintain a false reputation. If the company wants to read praise from our members, they should release the association from the gag rule that prohibits criticism. The holiday season has nothing to do with it.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2014 : 18:41:02

Russ & Steve,

I just stumbled on this issue. It is truly unfortunate that one company would take this kind of action. I admire your professional response to that incredibly shortsighted and, frankly, stupid move by that company.

It almost boggles the mind that by initiating that action it almost proves that the company is guilty of the poor reputation that they've developed for themselves.

Being active in multiple boating forums for the past 15 years, and participating in your fine forum, and also in building our own C34 website, I have never, ever heard of anything like this. It is truly the height of arrogance and indicates a really thin skin.

If someone tried that on us, we would paper every single boating forum with the "news" before the injunction took place.

In some cases, I have seen the "aggrieved" party actually take to the forum and give their side of the story, which is what this jerk should have done in this case. Too bad he didn't take that approach.

Thanks for the link to the C250 post.

I'll never use them, and will tell ALL my friends, both personally, physically and on every website I visit, to avoid this company like the plague. I truly hope he goes out of business.

It is chilling that his actions are really an attempt to limit free speech.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2014 : 05:29:38

Seems like we are starting this old thread up again minus the sailmaker's name. Kind of interesting. To tell you the truth, it was quite some time ago when we had those discussions...and I forget the name.

Probably best to counter the one name we cannot mention with all the ones that we can. Many have had excellent experiences with many reputable and well known sailmakers...and same goes for mfrs of other products as well. A wise consumer not only goes by price but generally researches various resources to read reviews/find out experience others have had with products and mfrs. Multiple favorable reviews of a product or mfr goes a long way toward influencing my decisions....not just one review. Of course, price is an important factor but there are so many other factors that must also be considered....and I won't launch into sailcloth details again...those that have not read those comments can do their own searching thru the archives.

So, maybe we should run through all those that have had excellent experiences with their sails and the sailmakers that have provided them.

In my case, I went with Quantum out of Annapolis. Quantum is a well known sail maker and often times makes custom sails and as such, the sails are not going to be competitive with many sails that can be gotten via a website. While sails can be bought off the shelf and many vouch for going this route, I went the custom route...and this was back in....~2006-2007ish. Quantum came down to Potomac River/DC area to my marina and took the measurements directly off my boat. I was ordering a main and a 150 furling rig genoa. I wanted one set of reefing holes which were set mid-way from where the two sets of holes would normally be placed. I had a few addl things done to the sails and went with the 2nd highest quality (low stretch Dacron) out of the 4 Dacron weaves that are generally sold by Challenge (mfr) for their sail cloth. Quantum designed the sails out of the Annapolis office and then the sails are made overseas, I believe in their Cape Town, South Africa facility. I then picked up the sails in Annapolis saving the shipping costs. I have now had these sails for ~ 7 years and they have worked well for me. Quantum was efficient and on schedule throughout my purchasing experience.

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/15/2014 05:33:15

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2014 : 06:48:44

Good point Larry about the service involved with custom. I have been shopping sails now for next year. North Sails provided two quotes which really provides a look into the service cost. One was directly from the loft, a la off the shelf buy it and get it, the other included a rep coming to the boat, taking measurements etc.

Even on production boats, the fitment and care taken into sail production is worth the extra cost if you can swing it.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2014 : 20:52:08

As I've mentioned before, I've had good sail purchasing experiences with 3 sailmakers/providers, National Sail Supply, The Sail Warehouse, and Island Planet Sails. At the time, they all sold Rolly Tasker Sails, not upscale and no trips to the boat to measure, but they are good sails at value prices. I would buy from any of them again.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2014 : 21:11:37

Great ! I know all those sailmakers you mentioned and others have also mentioned them from time to time as having good experiences. Based on the one name we can't mention, I feel like we should possibly start something up here to counter that gag order......like maybe start a new Forum Section with mfrs mentioned that have provided good support to Forum members. Then the lack of being on that pick list or having few supporters, certainly would be a a reason to pause before placing a deposit on a product that has little or no forum member backing.

Anyone know of other associations/website bulletin boards that list favored mfrs ? I am sure there is a downside to this...if for nothing else, trying to effectively manage it.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2014 : 21:16:06

Careful guys... The name is blocked, but the logo is in full view in that picture. Fortunately, the initial comments are positive here, but the discussion about the history is not.

It might be interesting to see what would happen on Sailing Anarchy if this outfit tried to pull that there.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/15/2014 21:24:02

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2014 : 21:38:02

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Careful guys... The name is blocked, but the logo is in full view in that picture. . .

I was kind of wondering why we weren't digitally blocking the logo . . .

Edited by - on

Jan Briede
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2014 : 07:08:10

I am really bothered by the fact that we cannot give advice to our fellow forum members on what products or manufacturers to watch out for or even better to avoid. I remember YELP going through something like this and either winning the case, have it thrown out of court (free speech), or the plaintiff withdrawing. To me this is a case of bullying.
Are there any lawyers among us on this forum that can give us some advice? For one I would find it very useful to get product advice from fellow Forum members.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2014 : 07:59:47

quote:
Originally posted by Jan Briede

...Are there any lawyers among us on this forum that can give us some advice?...

Yup--our Past Commodore above, for one.

One would think that the prospect of such a brawl ending up on Sailinganarchy, Sailboatowners, and other sites would make any action against anyone like us look like a bad bet. But (1) the association would have to pay to defend itself, and (2) you never know... I think the decision to simply make this company not exist in our little world was best--no slams, but also no kudos. I would require a signed, written release from them before letting them out of our penalty box. They've proven their trustworthiness.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/16/2014 08:03:05

ftworthsailor
Captain

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USA
279 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2014 : 08:38:04

I agree with many of you, in that we, as members, should be allowed to post positive or negative comments about our personal dealings with any company, especially if they are accurate and documented.

Threatening to sue the FORUM or its principles because of a member or non-members' negative post is not only bad business, but also a form of censorship control that should not be allowed to any company.

If this were Angies List or any of the other business feedback forums and a customer provided negative feedback, I am sure that they don't allow businesses to control negative posts! If a business felt the negative feedback was not justified, they can post their response here, as well.

Negative post can easily be remedied on any FORUM by the company contacting it's customer directly and working out whatever the issue was. It's when a company or the customer refuses to work out a solution OR a mutual agreement, that negative posts exist.

I, for one, am fed up with all the political and non-political correctness BS. If it is TRUE, I want to hear about it.

Just sayin......

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2014 : 08:43:08

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

It might be interesting to see what would happen on Sailing Anarchy if this outfit tried to pull that there.

They tried it on other forums and were ignored. But, other forums have more financial resources than we do. As I understand it, YELP is a multinational corporation that can afford a court fight. Your $22. per year dues wouldn't go very far to defend the association and the officers from litigation. Our officers, who serve without compensation, can't be expected to "fight the good fight" at their own expense.

The agreement that was reached by the Commodore was reasonable, and protected the association and the officers, and it hasn't really interfered with the basic mission of the association, which is to provide a forum where the members can exchange information and ideas. You can criticize any company in the world on this forum, except this one. If you insist on criticizing this company, do it on some other forum, and, if you get sued, you can defend it at your own expense. IMO, life is too short to spend much of it fighting over small stuff, and, in the overall scheme of things, this is small stuff.

Anyone who wants to know the history of the company can find it easily by googling it. The people who have had a satisfactory experience with the company don't understand what the uproar is about. The people who have had a bad experience with the company describe their problems in detail. A few good recent experiences don't erase a long history of bad experiences.

As far as the association is concerned, the agreement was that the company not be named in any post, whether favorably or unfavorably, and we should continue that practice unless and until the company releases the association from the agreement.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2014 : 09:39:12

My opinion is that the gag order came into place for this specific mfr due to the extent and duration that the postings kept the posting string going. Typically, we may all comment on our experiences, positive or negative with mfrs and these singular comments, I would think pose no undue risk since a mfr would not want to bring additional attention to a posting thread that may have only one or two negative comments and then goes onto other mfrs, experiences, etc. But when the posting thread becomes inundated with negative comments all directed toward one mfr and with no let up and as I recall the posting thread went more and more into specifics with the mfr and from one or two that had somewhat inside info as to the ongoings surrounding the mfrs troubles, that is what I believe happened in this specific case and brought the threat of action. Most postings never go into such detail and we just move onto another subject/debate.

Recall that movie "War Games"...at the end when the computer that was playing, for real, "International Global War" or something like that and was then instructed to play in parallel, tic-tac-toe, it then realized that there are no winners. So, in that spirit..... maybe we should move on and "How about a nice game of chess ? ".

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/16/2014 09:46:25

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2014 : 12:08:05

Yes, we could just gag ourselves, while someone continues to make misrepresentations to our members, in an effort to persuade them to buy his merchandise. If our primary objective is to avoid controversy or an unwarranted threat of a lawsuit by a bully, then we could all just remain silent. If our primary objective is to warn our fellow members about a company with which they are considering doing business, then one doesn't remain silent.

The last time it was discussed on sailnet, the discussion went on for 5 pages, and lasted from September, 2013 until late November, 2014. The discussion here was not nearly that extended.

Our Commodore handled the situation just fine. Nobody got sued, and, although we can't mention the company's name, we can strongly suggest that our members google any company that markets sails before buying from them. Everyone should do that as a matter of course. If you do, all this info will come up. If you send hundreds of dollars to an online company without knowing anything about the company's history, then you take your chances.

On principle, I'd rather the gag agreement had never happened, but it's no big deal, and, due to subsequent clarifications in the law, I don't foresee it ever happening again with regard to any other company.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2014 : 12:56:55

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...due to subsequent clarifications in the law, I don't foresee it ever happening again with regard to any other company.

From what I've read, Federal law now protects ISPs and web site operators (like our officers) from suits over libelous or slanderous information posted on their sites by other individuals... But the individuals, themselves, are not protected from libel suits. Libel is still libel, and anyone can sue anyone else for what they perceive as libel and let a court decide. In that regard, while the association and its officers might be relatively immune, any of the participants in a discussion here could be sued (assuming the plaintiff could figure out who we are), and would have to defend themselves. Thus, the agreement discussed here is on behalf of us all as individuals--not just our officers. As Steve said, if some of us want to go to war, there are sites that specialize in that kind of thing. (S/A, etc.) But I'd do it under greater anonymity than I, for example, use here. (They could look me up in the phone book!)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/16/2014 13:00:41

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