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Heel vs Speed

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Landshark
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/21/2014 : 20:14:11

Last weekend my Sister, Mom and I took out our awesome C25 in some fun weather. Winds were about 10 - 15kts with 1 to 2ft waves. It was cold (about 40f), but sunny. We had a blast!

Anyway, on to the question.

What is the good balance between heel and speed?

We only had our 100% jib out (no main) and were making about 5kts with about 10% heel. For us that was a pretty good comfortable start based on our experience with our newly purchased Cat25.

After reading more about heeling, it seems the Cat25 can go quite far over (20 to 30% heel) without much issue.

I know we are new so that 10% felt comfortable, but also 'new' to us. My concern is, with a boat heeling 15% or even 20% over, what's the boat speed generally at? We've got it up to 7kts before on 10% or less heel in good winds (both sails up) and I've been under the impression anything above 7kts can start to get dangerous (breaking rigging, etc). Is that true or false?

To get more comfortable with our boat I think I'll try heeling over a bit more the next time we are out, but I wanted to make sure we aren't doing any damage to the boat in the process.

My Mom and I use to race hobiecats many many years ago and so we are no stranger to heeling 90 and even 180 (turtle!). :) Having a mono-hull is new to us though.

Thank you!

Edited by - Landshark on 11/21/2014 20:42:43

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 05:52:24

General consensus is 15 degrees heel is fastest

Edited by - on

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 06:26:10

good luck going any faster than 7 through the water unless you are surfing down a tall wave. I've heeled as far as 50 degrees, alarming, but not dangerous. The rudder will have no effect , the asymmetric hull shape will cause the boat round up, and the boat will stand up. others have said they have been knocked down with the spreaders in the water and the boat stood back up.

Ive always found that you should try to keep heel under 20 degrees or the weather helm on the rudder will slow you down too much. Many times I have reefed and gone faster.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 08:21:14

15-20 degrees of heel is all the excitement I need. That's when all the snacks, drinks, the radio and handheld instruments go flying around the cockpit and the cabin.
But speed is a slightly different matter. I find that I go fastest on a reach with the sails eased just before luffing, and sail shape is very important. Adjusting headsail blocks to get the right angle is critical, main sail flatness versus chord is important. Heel is much more a consequence of windspeed, sailshape and direction of the apparent wind, not the determinant or correlation of forward speed.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 08:46:53

I sailed (owned) Bruce's boat before he did... felt about the same thing. The jib alone (mine was a 130% genoa on a roller) gives more speed with less heel than the main, at least partly because its center of area (or "center of effort) is considerably lower. On a blustery, gusty day or a lazy evening, we'd just pull out the genny and relax--gusts into the 20s wouldn't phase the boat.

Don't worry about breaking the rigging unless you manage to roll the boat (which takes a breaking ocean wave) or run into a bridge. The C-25 is stoutly rigged (as long as the rigging is in good condition), and the more it heels, the less pressure there is on the sails and rigging. At some point, the increasing leverage of the keel balances the decreasing pressure on the rig and the heeling stops--it can't go any further. It's only a matter of how comfortable you feel and how much stuff is falling inside the cabin. As mentioned, past about 15 degrees the drive from the sails starts to decrease, the bite of the rudder dramatically decreases, and there's a tendency to overcorrect with the rudder, causing drag.

6.3 knots is the "theoretical (maximum) hull speed" of the C-25, calculated from its length at the waterline--anything above that is flying! 5 knots on the headsail alone is doing very well! Enjoy the ride!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/22/2014 09:16:32

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 08:49:10

speaking of breaking stuff in the cabin; i love the beam reach where all your cabin stuff is broken and on the starboard side. although it occurs most often when beating to windward.

Edited by - dasreboot on 11/22/2014 08:53:38

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3312 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 09:43:40

One of my mentors once claimed that there were only 2 points of sail "close-hauled and all the others"

Edited by - on

Landshark
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 19:28:54

Thank you all for the replies and info! I love learning more about sailing.

After thinking about it more, we were making the 5kts going downwind. Upwind we were doing about 3kts if I remember correctly. That was just the jib (100%).

The more I read your responses the more I understand how these boats handle, I appreciate the info.

Right now I've got the headsail blocks sitting about 50% along their rail, I haven't messed with them too much yet, still getting comfortable with the basics of handling the boat first. It's my understanding to put them forward for downwind and back(aft) for upwind, but it might take a while to find the sweet spots for both (which I intend to mark once I find).

The next time the boat is out I'm hoping to get more comfortable with the heel and having both sails up.

Just for info: I'm sailing in the Puget Sound (washington state). Winds can get kind of random and change often this time of year and the rain doesn't bother me, it's the cold AND rain that does. :) We've got part of a dodger, the frame and canvas, but missing the straps I think. That project is on my todo list.

Edited by - Landshark on 11/22/2014 19:29:48

capelyddol
1st Mate

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62 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 20:56:52

In all but the lightest airs, sailing boats will heel more the closer to the wind they are. The keel is designed to counterbalance the force of the wind on the sails, as it's weight becomes more effective closer to the horizontal plane, but it also provides resistance to the sideways drift of the boat through the water, and this is most effective nearer the vertical plane. The more the heel, the less resistance and the more sideways drift. To my mind good sailing means maintaining the best balance possible between these two factors.

Edited by - on

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2014 : 17:52:52

Fastest point of sail is a beam reach. The slowest is running downwind. Close hauled feels fast, but that's usually because you are adding the true wind to the apparent wind, so it's both noisy and windy. Close hauled also costs you the most leeway and rudder drag, depending on how well the sail plan is balanced.

Generally speaking, In strong winds, move the jib cars rearward to flatten the sail. In light winds, move them forward to give the sail a deeper draft. Moving the mainsheet traveler downwind can help flatten the mainsail in high winds, but the C-25 is pretty limited in that capacity. Using a loose-footed main and hauling out the clew will also help that.

Have to admit, most of my experience with these techniques comes from sailing bigger boats, so if anyone here takes exception with regard to the C-25, I'll be grateful for the input!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2014 : 21:13:33

I've been down 70º-80º and rounded up and got back on her feet. I intervened a bit, but it probably didn't matter much since the sail wasn't getting much wind and the rudder was out of the water. I will say that it took a combination of an off axis gust and wave to do it.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2014 : 21:29:31

quote:
Originally posted by pearson39b

Moving the mainsheet traveler downwind can help flatten the mainsail in high winds, but the C-25 is pretty limited in that capacity. Using a loose-footed main and hauling out the clew will also help that.

Have to admit, most of my experience with these techniques comes from sailing bigger boats, so if anyone here takes exception with regard to the C-25, I'll be grateful for the input!

The mainsheet traveler doesn't have anything to do with flattening the mainsail, either when sailing to windward or off the wind. It's purpose is to change the <u>angle of attack</u> of the mainsail when sailing to windward. Moving the traveler either way doesn't affect the shape of the mainsail. You might be thinking about the boom vang, which does help flatten the mainsail and to keep it spread out over the widest area when sailing downwind.

The C25 traveler isn't really limited by it's design, because, when you have eased the traveler as far as it will go, you can increase the angle of attack even further by easing the mainsheet.

The controls that can be used to flatten the mainsail are the mainsheet, the boom vang, the outhaul, the downhaul, the mainsail halliard, the cunningham and, (primarily on fractionally rigged boats) the backstay adjuster. These principles apply generally to boats of all sizes.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2014 : 22:21:02

Obviously my 2 cents in woth just that... But the traveler does work to help flatten. You let it out to leeward then use the main sheet to position as close to centerline as possible, flattening rather then just centering. That's not a C25 thing, it's a sailboat thing.

Edited by - on

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2014 : 01:27:51

Hesitated to put the traveler mention in because it always seems to provoke an argument. Agree with Steve on all the flattening elements he lists and the function of the traveler to set the angle of attack. But David is right too. Once you set the angle of attack with the traveler, the mainsheet can then function like the boom vang by exerting a more vertical, instead of horizontal, load on the boom. So Steve is technically right. The traveler doesn't flatten the main. The mainsheet does, but in combination with the traveler.

My opinion, but I have to admit I've already been wrong once this year!

Edited by - pearson39b on 11/25/2014 18:05:27

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2014 : 09:15:04

Depends on what you have. If you don't have a vang (a sin to the more passionate sailors), then the traveler can help flatten the main on a beat by letting the mainsheet pull more directly downward. However, a vang will do a better job of flattening at all points of sail, especially downwind where the sheeting angle is very low.

Beating or close reaching in light air, the traveler set to windward with the vang released can also allow the sail to be fuller--the mainsheet is at an angle so it won't tend to flatten it as much. In that respect, the traveler can affect the shape, vang or no vang.

In heavier air, the traveler can be set to windward, with the vang flattening the sail, such that the mainsheet can pull the boom all the way to the centerline or even slightly above it for the ultimate angle of attack for a beat. The curve of the leech needs to be to leeward of the centerline or the sail is essentially "backwinded" and will slow rather than drive the boat. (If you push the boom so far that the entire leech is to windward, with no headsail, you can make a sailboat back up--a technique for getting a dinghy or small catamaran out of "irons".)

$+!nkp*++er out.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/25/2014 11:38:28

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3367 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 05:19:20

Okay, as long as you are all into the debate on flattening the sail....I would think another factor not mentioned so far but I believe also contributes is the extent that the sail is stretched and if the sail is more than say 10-12 years old....chances are it is stretched unless it was of a high thread count Dacron, not used that often or never used in windy conditions. Those sailing with a significantly stretched out main and trying to keep the main without any mid-section flapping (due to the Dacron stretch), wind up having that mid-section then fill with wind and that may also tend to increase the heel.

Edited by - on

Landshark
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 15:16:14

Finally got an upload of the video I took of the trip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBq1uoX5U20

We are a novice crew. :) Although after a full day of good wind and practice tacking/jibing, we feel a lot more confident. It was also the most we've ever heeled over (on purpose) on our Cat 25.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 17:42:10

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Depends on what you have. If you don't have a vang (a sin to the more passionate sailors), then the traveler can help flatten the main on a beat by letting the mainsheet pull more directly downward. However, a vang will do a better job of flattening at all points of sail, especially downwind where the sheeting angle is very low.

There are generalizations here that depend heavily on how an individual boat is rigged.

On a stock C-25 the mainsheet can pull the boom down more effectively than the vang because it has the same purchase but is pulling the boom down at it's aft end instead of the center. On my Pearson 28-2 with a fine tune mainsheet (4:1/16:1) I can get the leech even tighter using the mainsheet.

Putting a lot of load on the vang can also bend the boom on many boats, permanently or temporarily. Walk around a dock where many boats are raced and it won't take too long to find a bent boom.

I do use the vang when I'm on a beam reach or off the wind, but use my mainsheet to control downward pressure on the main when I'm beating to weather. The Catalina 25's limited travel on the traveler does make this harder to do.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 17:43:33

quote:
Originally posted by Landshark

Finally got an upload of the video I took of the trip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBq1uoX5U20

We are a novice crew. :) Although after a full day of good wind and practice tacking/jibing, we feel a lot more confident. It was also the most we've ever heeled over (on purpose) on our Cat 25.

Nice video! Are you sailing out of Shilshole marina? I think you found a pod of harbor porpoise, they are pretty common around here, and always a treat to go sailing with.

Try moving your jib lead forward, it is too far aft in that video.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 19:59:11

IMO, there's no reason to tension a C25 vang so much that it might break the boom. If the mainsail has so much pressure on it that you can't flatten it enough without tightening the vang that much, then the solution is to tuck in a reef. Reducing sail area reduces the pressure on the sail. Breaking a boat is a sign of bad seamanship, for racers and cruisers alike. You can't win a race if you can't finish it with an intact boat.

Moreover, for the reasons Alex stated, there's no good reason to tension the vang excessively while beating to windward. As long as you're beating to windward, the mainsheet is more effective at tightening the leech of the mainsail than the vang. I have, on rare occasion, seen a racer tension a vang while beating, but, I routinely watch the knotmeter to see how sail trim adjustments affect boat speed, and I have never seen it affect boat speed. If your mainsail is loose-footed, you don't affect the depth of the draft, because you aren't pulling the fabric down.

The mainsheet holds the boom down to the extent of the traveler's reach. At that point, as the boat turns further off the wind, the vang takes over the task of holding the boom down. The transition between the two is unbroken.

Edited by - on

Landshark
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 20:20:57

quote:
Originally posted by awetmore

quote:
Originally posted by Landshark

Finally got an upload of the video I took of the trip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBq1uoX5U20

We are a novice crew. :) Although after a full day of good wind and practice tacking/jibing, we feel a lot more confident. It was also the most we've ever heeled over (on purpose) on our Cat 25.

Nice video! Are you sailing out of Shilshole marina? I think you found a pod of harbor porpoise, they are pretty common around here, and always a treat to go sailing with.

Try moving your jib lead forward, it is too far aft in that video.

Thanks! We are out of Des Moines. We've seen the porpoise before, but these were black/white. We think they were the White Sided Dolphins that were in the news recently: http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2014/09/26/dolphin-species-returns-to-puget-sound/16286779/

We might be wrong, but we've seen porpoises before (kinda snub nosed) and these looked different.

In any case, thanks for the tip about the jib car/track thing (lead?). I haven't messed with them too much yet. We were having trouble getting that flap out of the jib though unless we really pulled in the jib sheet. Obviously, we are lacking in experience. :) But we'll get there!

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 20:23:39

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

One of my mentors once claimed that there were only 2 points of sail "close-hauled and all the others"

That is my philosophy, hard on the wind or going someplace so I can get back hard on the wind. As for heel, I found 20 degrees a good number in most boats and the C 25 is the same. People who sail flat sail slow. Regardless of the "wisdom" just watch a race, no one is flat.

Edited by - on

Landshark
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 20:26:21

quote:
Originally posted by pastmember

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

One of my mentors once claimed that there were only 2 points of sail "close-hauled and all the others"

That is my philosophy, hard on the wind or going someplace so I can get back hard on the wind. As for heel, I found 20 degrees a good number in most boats and the C 25 is the same. People who sail flat sail slow. Regardless of the "wisdom" just watch a race, no one is flat.

Agreed, whatever keeps the adrenaline flowing.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 20:49:25

quote:
In any case, thanks for the tip about the jib car/track thing (lead?). I haven't messed with them too much yet. We were having trouble getting that flap out of the jib though unless we really pulled in the jib sheet. Obviously, we are lacking in experience. :) But we'll get there!

It's great to ask questions when building experience. You shouldn't apologize for that.

Moving the jib cars forwards will put more tension on the leech and may stop it from flapping. With your car set so far aft all of the tension is on the foot and little of it is on the leech. Most sails will also have a line in the leech that can be used to remove leech flutter. You need to be careful not to get it too tight because that will hook the leech of the sail.

As a general rule of thumb you should start with the jib sheet coming at an angle that would bisect the luff of the jib. That will work in moderate conditions, in high winds you'd move it aft (which flattens the lower portion of the sail and adds twist to depower the sail) and in low winds you'd move it forward (which makes the sail fuller and adds power).

I recommend joining "The Orca Network" on Facebook to learn more about marine mammal visits in the area. It's been a real treat to see the Orcas up close from our boat. You're lucky to have seen dolphins!

Edited by - on

Arlington
Navigator

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USA
196 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 21:21:50

HI Scott and Family:
Welcome to the forum. Congratulations on your maiden voyage. What a great video, looked great, an excellent start for a great crew and fine boat.
Doug

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2014 : 14:16:23

quote:
Originally posted by Landshark

What is the good balance between heel and speed?

For long distances, I switch headsails (and eventually reef) at 20 degrees. Around the pins I'll push it much further. As someone mentioned above the boat will stand up even after getting knocked over to 70 or 80 degrees. (The rudder comes out and she rounds up.)

If my Mom (70, Not a Sailor) is on the boat, we stand it up for her at 18 degrees.

quote:

We've got it up to 7kts before on 10% or less heel in good winds (both sails up) and I've been under the impression anything above 7kts can start to get dangerous (breaking rigging, etc). Is that true or false?

False.

I push 7+ on a regular basis. With the kite up at 90 degrees apparent 7.5 (constant) for miles can be done.

I had a pretty good crew once and we were on a distance race when the wind built (from ~5) to around 20. The apparent wind was at about 110, and we had the extra bodies on the bow. We started with the 'light air' sheets and never switch up to the heavies. At the end of the day the guy had 9 wraps around the winche to keep from slipping, and ~5 wraps around the sheet. 10" winch handle on a Lewmar 7 was needed to pull that sheet in. I saw 8.6 on the knotmeter before the crew covered it up on me. Not sure what we max'ed out at. We took 3rd overall and didn't break a thing. (Maybe a fingernail - all female crew that day.)

YMMV

Matt

Edited by - on

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