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Swing Keel Concern

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Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/23/2014 : 06:05:34

I'll start by reminding everyone that the admiral and I are extremely new to sailing. 3 years ago we sailed for a weekend on L Michigan with a friend on his 42' and we vowed to own our own boat some day. Fast forward to this past May... we finally found and purchased our SK C25. After much work and prodding from the crew at the marina (where I work part time) we launched 2 weeks ago. The following day a friend of ours showed us the rigging, checked the sails (good head sail, good storm jib and a ratty main) and we went on the lake in very light winds for about an hour or so while he ran over the basics to see how much we understood. After he left the admiral and I sailed on our own for about 4 hours. Because of our extreme dislike for the hank on head sail we simply sailed with the main that day.

Fast forward to yesterday. Winds were light although a bit stronger than that first sail. We left the marina and raised the head sail. All was well but I think winds, which were light, may have been a bit strong for our experience level (which is none) and we were getting some good heeling. I have to admit that we couldn't keep our course and she pointed into the wind and righted herself. I never gave the swing keel much thought until that moment and wondered what it took, or how far we had to heel before the keel would, or could, kick up. On a fixed keel boat I wouldn't have given the situation a second thought but with the swing it concerned me because I have no knowledge or experience with heeling hard with a swing. At what point should a SK owner be concerned with the degree of heeling, if any?

On a side note, I personally hate the hank on head sail and not at all comfortable lowering in choppy water. There is definitely a furler in the future.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 06:46:01

Well, I had my sails all wrong. After re-confirming with our friend on our sail inventory I figure I must have been asleep when he explained what we had. Evidently we were flying our 150 yesterday. Sounds like our head sail inventory includes a good 110 and 150 and I forgot about the genaker.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 07:13:52

The swing keel weighs 1500 lbs, so it won't really swing up, although they do occasionally clunk. If the boat capsizes beyond 90 degrees, the keel is at some risk of swinging "up" against the bottom of the hull. The farther it rolls beyond 90 degrees, the more likely it is to swing. It's hard to imagine that happening on a smallish inland lake, because it usually would take big waves in addition to a high wind to roll the boat beyond 90 degrees. It's possible, but not very likely. I never saw it happen to any of the half dozen swingers that my friends sailed in the 23 years that I had my C25. I laid my C25 fin keel on it's side probably a half dozen times, and it lifted the rudder out of the water, but not the keel. As I recall, it never went over to 90 degrees, and nothing bad ever happened to my boat when I did it.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 08:30:28

Hi Kyle... First, I'd leave the 150 home for a while--it's harder to manage, harder to see around, and more than you need. The 110 is a good sail for beginners and non-racers.

As to heeling, I'll mention something about the overall physics involved... Two things happen as your angle of heel increases: (1) the force of the wind on the sails decreases because of their angle and area presented to the wind, while (2) the righting force of the keel increases as it extends further to the side of the "center of boyancy" of the boat. (Obviously, it outweighs the rig by a lot.) So, in just about any given wind, there is only so far the boat can heel, and it really can't reach 90 degrees due to wind alone on a boat with this much ballast. What ends up putting the mast in the water and possibly rolling a keelboat in a big storm is a big wave catching it on the beam while it's excessively heeled. So even on L. Michigan, unless you're out in a storm with 5'+ seas, you're not going to heel to the point that gravity pushes your keel into the trunk. (It can happen more easily with the C-22 because of its broader shape and lighter keel.)

Regarding dousing the jib, short of getting a furler, I'll suggest a "dousing line" (which some call a "downhaul" or "down halyard"). It runs from the cockpit through a block at the bow and up to the uppermost hank on the jib (but not to the eye at the very top). As you hoist the sail, this line runs freely and then can be snugged on a little cleat somewhere. When you want to douse the sail, you release the halyard, let the sail fall as far as it will, and then pull it the rest of the way down with this line. The line will also help to hold the sail on the deck when a headwind is trying to push it back up the forestay. I rigged a dousing line on a daysailer, and ran the line through a couple of the jib hanks just to keep it from flopping around. I had a little cam cleat with a fairlead (eye) at the cockpit to hold it.

Your problem with the boat turning into the wind ("rounding up") might be largely due to your reportedly baggy mainsail, which causes excessive heeling and holds too much of the force of the wind too far aft in the overall rig. The aft end of the boat is being pushed around, the heeling causes the rudder to lose its effectiveness, and the boat swings into the wind. For the moment, to help flatten the sail a little, make sure your out-haul at the end of the boom is pulling the sail as tightly as possible, the halyard, downhaul, and vang (if you have one) are tight. Then ease the main a little on all points of sail so that short of luffing, it isn't pushing you over too much. You should also have your friend show you how to reef the main to reduce its size, and think about a new one.

Lastly, as I think you learned from your friend's boat, a furler will change your life! You might even find, as several of us have, that it makes sailing with just the headsail the simplest and most relaxing way to go out!

If your 150 is pretty good, you could have it converted for the furler and cut down to a 130-135, which many non-racers have decided is the ideal sail for a furler.

Lots to think about... We're all still learning--every one of us!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/23/2014 08:32:59

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 09:24:09

THIS!!! Regarding dousing the jib, short of getting a furler, I'll suggest a "dousing line" (which some call a "downhaul" or "down halyard").

re: heeling angle, you can go a Loooong way over before anything is of concern. ENJOY the learning experience. Easing the main will help there, and if you are heeling too much for comfort, release the mainsheet more. If you ease the main until it luffs, then pull in slightly, you have a good starting point.

For high winds, flatten your sails, in light winds, make it baggier. The sail is a vertical wing, jetfighter shape for fast moving wind, and hangglider shape in light wings.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 09:52:47

Thanks everyone!!

A lot of good info here. I will be installing the dousing line this weekend and using the 110 for now. I am also considering a dousing line for the main since it isn't operating smoothly on the downhaul. What do folks recommend I do with the jib after I lower it? I have a jib bag but not familiar with its use. I had one recommendation of stuffing most of it in the hatch but I'd prefer the bag if I know how to properly use it.

Just for the record, we did NOT have our main up when she pointed and stood up - only the 150.

Thanks for going easy on the new folks!

Edited by - Kper on 07/23/2014 09:54:08

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 11:05:11

quote:
Originally posted by Kper

...Just for the record, we did NOT have our main up when she pointed and stood up - only the 150.

Oh, right... That is what you said. Hmmmmm... Generally weather helm (the tendency to turn into the wind) is caused by the main, and genny-alone sailing tends towed the opposite--neutral or even lee helm (trying to turn away from the wind). Some light weather helm is a safety feature--sorta like a dead-man's throttle. Excessive weather helm on headsail alone is puzzling (at least to me), although somewhat more likely with a 150. Sailing on just the headsail reduces heeling, even compared to the main alone, because the area is concentrated lower than it is on the main. I suggest getting your friend to go out with you, and trying to reproduce that situation. I suspect he'll see something obvious that I'm having trouble imagining from here.

To help the mainsail drop, try squirting some liquid hand soap on the slugs inside the slot.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/23/2014 11:13:53

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 11:29:24

OK, here's a thought... Relative to the position of the clew (aft lower corner) of your 150, where is the block positioned on the genoa track that runs along the rail? If the sheet coming up off that block isn't pulling the clew back enough, and down too much, it will "cup" the sail so the wind will heel you excessively and, with a big 150, the force might concentrate far enough aft to push you around toward the wind.

In the general case, that moveable block ("car") should be positioned so the angle of the sheet is perpendicular to that of the forestay. This pulls the genoa back more than down, thereby flattening the larger, lower part of it. With a smaller sail (110), the car should be further forward to get a similar angle. When you get to the point of adjusting things for maximum performance, you'll find that in heavy air the car should be moved back, and in light air, forward of that "perpendicular" position... But that's for another day.

Does this sound like a possibility?

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 11:43:18

Dave, both cars are back evenly and placed a click or two behind the stantion just forward of the sheet winches. At the time, we had wind about 45 degrees off starboard and the jib was pulled snug along the port side clear back to the car. When it started heeling it happened fast enough that I initially tried to compensate with the rudder but when I realized that was futile I tried to let out the sheet but it stood up quicker than I could make the adjustment.

Sure glad I can laugh at myself.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 12:08:03

And speaking of furling systems, can somebody provide me with quick advice on a decent, affordable system?

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pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 12:39:25

Decent and affordable = CDI FF4. Best money I ever spent on the boat was the furler and new sails.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 13:06:03

Thank you.

Edited by - on

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 19:28:51

Reefing the main in the beginning while your learning could help and get some belly out of your main Getting the furler get one that you can reef your jib as well. reducing sail area is a great way to control heeling and get you so y ou can practice comfortably

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 19:31:25

I wish you lived closer, you need someone to spend time with you who know a Catalina 25, I wish it could be me.

Edited by - on

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2014 : 19:33:23

Frank dont you think that reducing sail area is a good way to reduce heel if the wind it too much.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 05:16:39

I think the new sailors big mistake is in reducing sail area and when to do it. It was for me when I first started. New sailors tend to get overpowered, Inducing a lot of heel that is frightening when you are not accustom to it. Feeling out of control is not fun. Reducing sail and when to do it is something that you will learn over time and get to know the boats characteristics. I would suggest to reef the main and leave it that way along with the 110 headsail. Sail the boat this way for the rest of the summer or until you are very comfortable in your skills. If the wind is very strong use the headsail alone without the main. The cat25 really is a headsail driven boat that does not sail very well on the main alone. The main sheet is the panic button. Just let it out if you feel overpowered. If a gust hits you and the boat heels uncomfortably try turning the boat away from the wind almost on a down wind direction. The boat will go level and everything will get calm. Above all remember to have fun!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 06:25:57

The problem that Kyle presented at the start of this discussion was uncontrollable rounding up on the headsail alone--a big headsail. I think Frank and I both believe this is a contradiction that points to something like a rigging problem or some other basic misunderstanding that somebody with a little experience should be able to spot. It doesn't seem to fit the conventional "reduce sail" formula. Without the main, the center of effort is further forward relative to the center of lateral resistance, which should reduce weather helm, normally to the point of almost eliminating it. Somebody needs to take a look.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/24/2014 06:33:43

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 06:26:39

Don't think my none input means I am not reading. I am taking all this in and processing.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 06:46:44

...and excuse some of my goofy typos above--that's my iPad "keyboard" not paying attention to me and sometimes making up new words.

I'll skip editing them--it confuses the "Active Topics" readers.

Edited by - on

indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 06:51:53

Seems like an odd behavior. Is it possible the keel was not in the down position?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 07:15:51

quote:
Originally posted by indyshelley

...Is it possible the keel was not in the down position?

That should also produce the opposite effect--less weather helm or likely lee helm.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 07:47:54

The keel was down. On the initial sail with our friend we had the main and 150 up and the cable started humming with little heeling. I used my fingers to loosen the cable between 1/8 and 1/4 turn to quiet the hum but kept the slack out of the cable.

My plan at this point, providing the admiral concurs, is to install a downhaul on the head sail and use the 110 jib, reef the main and see how she does. I'm helping out at the marina Saturday and winds are supposed to pick up on Sunday so we'll see if we feel comfortable heading out on Sunday.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 08:30:13

I had no idea you could tune the mast to favor weather helm OR lee helm. Nor did I know that through that adjustment you can take advantage of the position of the rudder to gain additional speed. Of course all this is way beyond me at the moment. lol

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 08:50:56

All true, to an extent, but I think it would have to be raked WAAAAY back to induce the behavior you described. I found a rake of something like 4-6" (the distance the halyard shackle will hang aft of the mast at the boom) to be about right. This helps induce a small amount of weather helm in most situations, which is both safer and faster than a neutral helm (where the boat sails straight ahead indefinitely when the rudder is released). Others may have found a different rake to suit them better, and other things affect this.

The mystery continues... Hopefully it will be a distant memory after you've tried the 110 and reefing the main (a good exercise, if nothing else). I hope all is normal then, but I'll still suggest a seasoned pair of eyeballs on the scene. In blustery conditions, she should sail comfortably on the 110 alone--without that rounding up.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/24/2014 08:53:11

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 09:21:11

Hear, hear, what good advice from the Forum. Leave the 150 in the bag, reef the main, down haul for the forward sail and watch the weather. Practice in light winds in the morning with the main is my add. Try the 110 later. Have a great sail.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2014 : 09:40:21

quote:
Practice in light winds in the morning with the main is my add. Try the 110 later.

Exactly what the admiral wants to do. I'm the one rushing the use of the jib.

Edited by - on

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