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Sail Size Rule of Thumb: Central Long Island Sound

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gbward
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/15/2014 : 10:13:04

Hello,

I just purchased a 1978 C25 SK/SR. My home port is New Haven harbor and I was wondering if anybody (local) can provide some rules of thumb for sail size and configuration vs wind speed.

I am a relative newbie (PO of a sunfish and Compac 16) and will be carrying my wife and kids on board - so comfort is more important than performance.

I have the following sails:
-Mainsail - standard rig, single reef
-Wire furled 135% genoa
-Hank on 150% geona
-Wire furel 100% jib

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-Geoff

1978 C25 SR/SK #0776

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2014 : 10:59:28

I'm not local to you, but my rule of thumb is:
when the wife starts to complain, I start to reduce sail.......

She's gotten better over the years..... we almost had the rail in the water Sunday.....

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2014 : 11:10:38

Well, I wish you had a "real" furler that would make that 135 usable in just about all the conditions you're likely to be in. But relative to your previous boats, the C-25 will seem safe and comfortable, and is virtually impossible to knock down.

The wire furler probably can't reef the genny--just roll it up, and that might be difficult if you have enough halyard tension to minimize sag in the luff. The hank-on 150 is nice for light air performance, but I'll call it excessive for "social" sailing, due to sail handling and the inability to easily shorten it if the breeze builds past your comfort zone. So I'll suggest the following configurations for "comfortable" sailing (not knowing your precise definition of "comfort"):

0 - 10 kts: full main and 135%

10 - 14 kts: reefed main and 135

15 - 18 kts: 135 alone

12 - 16 kts: reefed main and 100%

I'm not sure how the boat will handle with the 100% alone--I suspect it will have some lee helm and be tricky to tack.

Remember that if you can't get most of the sag out of the furler via halyard tension, the genny will be very full, generating more heel and less drive. I hope that collection works for you, but I'll suggest you dedicate a piggy-bank to the eventual purchase of a real furler. That 135 should work with minimal conversion, and is just about the perfect sail for your kind of use.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2014 11:17:20

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2014 : 14:13:59

I've never gone head sail alone. Drawbacks, advantages?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2014 : 14:36:05

Dave's breakdown is excellent for general purposes, but when wives and children are aboard, I am inclined to reduce sail area even a little more, because, if the boat is heeling and bucking, children get tossed around, and their legs are too short to be able to prop themselves securely, and parents can't enjoy sailing because they worry about the child getting hurt. It's better to slow the boat down a bit and keep it upright. I would much rather have a pleasant, slow sail than to scare the family so that they won't want to sail with me again. After they become accustomed to the boat's motion, you will be able to get more adventuresome with your sail selection, and they'll enjoy it then.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2014 : 15:18:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidBuoy
 I've never gone head sail alone. Drawbacks, advantages?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The advantages are more speed and much less heel than, for example, the main alone--basically because the geometric center, or "center of effort", is lower. On a gusty, blustery day, you'll feel the boat accelerate with surprisingly little change in heel.

The disadvantages, compared to the main alone, are more sheet handling in tacking, and sometimes a little more difficulty tacking through the wind. This can be alleviated by falling off a little to gain speed before the tack, doing a gentle turn to maintain speed through the tack, and allowing the headsail to back-wind momentarily to push the bow through. Then don't trim too tightly or try to sail too high on the new tack until you regain some speed, or you might get spun around down-wind.

A larger (130+) headsail is probably better for helm balance and tacking, and the C-25 might do better than the C-250 under headsail alone, due to the position of the mast.

With roller furling, headsail-alone can be an easy, relaxing way to enjoy some time on the water--pull one string and you're sailing; pull another and you're done!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2014 15:22:30

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2014 : 15:34:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...but when wives and children are aboard, I am inclined to reduce sail area even a little more... It's better to slow the boat down a bit and keep it upright. I would much rather have a pleasant, slow sail than to scare the family so that they won't want to sail with me again. After they become accustomed to the boat's motion, you will be able to get more adventuresome with your sail selection, and they'll enjoy it then.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I wholeheartedly agree, although I was thinking they had already been sailing on the little Compac. If not, take 3-4 knots off my wind speed ranges. Start conservatively and work up. One day they'll be begging you to bury the rail!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2014 15:34:45

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2014 : 18:58:54

Dave hit the nail on the head for the advantages and disadvantages of sailing on head sail alone.

I haven't raised the main on my C-25 in probably 2 years. I installed a Harken Mark IV roller furler a couple of years ago and as Dave said I "pull one string and I'm sailing; pull another and I'm done". It's absolutely the best money I've ever spent on a boat.

It IS harder to tack without the main but if your just day-sailing it's not a big deal. I actually jibe more than I tack when using just the 150 because it's easier.

Until you and the family get used to the boat I'd recommend the main and the 100% to keep the boat on it's feet and for ease of sail handling.

Once everyone is accustomed to the boat in various conditions I'd go with the main and 135 for most conditions.

Edited by - GaryB on 04/15/2014 19:04:13

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2014 : 07:02:50

When going headsail alone, it's been my experience that performance is better with a 150 over the 135.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2014 : 07:04:35

Dave is right, Cat 25's are headsail driven boats. If you have a RF it is the perfect lazy mans boat. When the wind is strong I often just leave the main packed away and adjust the Genoa for the conditions. This video is us last Oct on a reefed headsail alone in 28-32 winds and you can see the boat is under control and not getting knocked around from the gusts. A little bouncing on the waves though. This was an East wind and is about the worst direction for the Sound as far as waves go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh9SmFxOXPo

Edited by - on

gbward
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2014 : 07:30:28

All,

Thank you for all your replies and advice. I was hoping to get maybe one reply in a week - not 9 in a day. This really is an active forum!

With regard to my kids and my Compac, I sold the Compac when I had my first child - so none of my children have been on boats. Now I have three kids, 12, 9 ,and 6 - and I feel it's the right time to get them into boating.

I have great memories of boating with my father and grandfather when I was a child, so I am hoping to provide similar experiences for my children.

I will definitely take it slow and try to minimize heeling. And I will investigate upgrading to a roller furler in the not too distant future. I've read other posts on the subject and my take away is that the CDI Flex Furler FF4 is a good choice.

Thanks again,

-Geoff

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2014 : 14:47:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gbward
 ...my take away is that the CDI Flex Furler FF4 is a good choice.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Your take is good--that's the Toyota of furlers. Harken is the Porsche... Most owners recommend the "ball bearing option" with the CDI for smooth operation.

By the way, to get that gang of kids back into sailing (and loving it), you might want to seriously consider going full circle--pick up a used Sunfish for them.

You should get together with "Voyager" Bruce Ross, who I believe now sails what used to be my C-25 out of Milford (which you list as home).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/16/2014 14:59:13

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2014 : 19:11:03

Yes indeed Geoff -
I hale out of Milford tho I live in Stratford. I'll be moving Passage from its winter storage to Milford Harbor on April 26 - next Saturday - if I can get everything done.
Where do you moor your boat? New Haven Yacht Club in Morris Cove or Pequonneck YC near Sage Restaurant?
New Haven has a busy harbor with large tankers and transports, but is well-protected with a huge, three-sided seawall. On the weekend of June 21 the local Power Squadron will be holding it's family-friendly 100th Anniversary celebration.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2014 : 15:55:30

Going out tomorrow on the bay with 5 people. Supposed to be 10knots or less, is that 150 genoa territory? Haven't flown it yet but have some friends who have been getting into sailing and will be able to help if it gets to be a handful. Just still unsure of sail vs wind choices.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2014 : 16:03:49

Ten kts or less is perfect for the 150, but keep in mind that the wind doesn't always turn out exactly as the weatherman predicted it. The rule of thumb in that case is to reduce sail area early in a rising wind. Raise the mainsail first, and, if it looks like the 150 might be too much, then put up the next smaller jib.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2014 : 17:54:42

A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2014 : 21:12:21

Wow, good read! Might go smaller?? Lol, I do have a new 110 I haven't broken out yet. Just need to get the sheets together.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2014 : 07:55:31

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/19/2014 07:56:39

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2014 : 13:59:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidBuoy
 Wow, good read! Might go smaller?? Lol, I do have a new 110 I haven't broken out yet. Just need to get the sheets together.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd just go sailing and quit worrying about!

It's going to be hard to get in too much trouble in 10 knots of wind.

I'd be more worried about the drunk power boaters running over me!!

Edited by - GaryB on 04/19/2014 13:59:56

Kennyge
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2014 : 16:31:27

All I can say is that I can't wait to get back on the Long Island Sound (west end) and try out my brand new 135 Doyle Genoa with all the bells and whistles.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2014 : 05:30:50

What a great day!!! Love being out on the water!

Edited by - on

gbward
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2014 : 06:44:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Yes indeed Geoff -
I hale out of Milford tho I live in Stratford. I'll be moving Passage from its winter storage to Milford Harbor on April 26 - next Saturday - if I can get everything done.
Where do you moor your boat? New Haven Yacht Club in Morris Cove or Pequonneck YC near Sage Restaurant?
New Haven has a busy harbor with large tankers and transports, but is well-protected with a huge, three-sided seawall. On the weekend of June 21 the local Power Squadron will be holding it's family-friendly 100th Anniversary celebration.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Bruce,

I live in Milford and am docking my boat at PYC this summer. (I was thinking about mooring in Milford harbor, but chose a slip for the first year to make thing easier on me and my family.)

Also, I joined the USPS last week. Just got an email with a list of local squadrons and your name was first on the list. When's the next meeting? I'd like to check it out.

Let me know if you need help launching the boat. As of right now, I'm free Saturday afternoon.

-Geoff

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2014 : 16:34:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I joined the USPS last week.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So your a mail man?....

Sorry just couldn't let that go by.. Bruce is a good guy, He can probably give you a lot of pointers.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2014 : 17:12:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 ...Bruce is a good guy,,,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and he sails a good boat!

Edited by - on

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