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Sustained 15-20 gusting to 35

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redeye
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Initially Posted - 03/31/2014 : 04:13:46

Whoo Hoo... that was a hoot on Sunday. Talk about waking you up.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 04:24:42

You’re braver than I....

We stayed in yesterday....

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 04:43:14

Well.. I'm only catching the fetch that comes up from across a lake.. I can only imagine the downwind side of Tampa Bay.

This is my sailing season .. so reef and roll baby... I was single handing cause my friends were like... Umm.. not today...

It was sweet...

Edited by - redeye on 03/31/2014 04:44:52

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 05:04:09

Around here, the wind is not the problem, it’s the extremely bumpy ride.....

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
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USA
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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 06:27:17

We had two C-25's and three C-22's out on the lake, yesterday. Winds were 14-16 with gusts over 25. Most boats were reefed and were moving pretty fast over the course. Not a day for new sailors, however a great day for those of us that wanted to really see their boat fly......

I don't believe that I have ever seen a C-25 knocked over as far as witnessed yesterday. It sure was FUN.

I, unfortunately, was not able to sail because I was coerced into running the Race Committee boat. I will get it next time.....

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 03/31/2014 06:29:03

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 07:33:33

"reef & roll, baby"

Yeah, it's pretty exhilarating! That's pretty much a typical summer afternoon on SF Bay (measured in knots, rather than mph) so I understand how thrilling it must have been.

I've got a question about the Cat-25 characteristics in conditions like that. My 135 and my single-reef, blown-out main are quite overpowered well-before the wind reaches that level, so I have to roll up the genoa to a fraction of its size, and I'm happy to be able to tack within 50 degrees (or more) off true, because the weather helm becomes unmanageable when I heel more than maybe 35 degrees or so.

I understand that the wetted shape changes as the hull rotates, and I also appreciate that there's a substantial appendage (keel) dragging through the water well-off to the windward side while the driving force is shifted well-off to the leeward side, which combine to want to rotate the whole system to windward. But, when I'm already heeled over and straining a bit on the tiller, every gust overpowers my rudder and causes the boat to try to round-up. This is at its worst when I'm reaching rather than driving as high as possible.

My question is, does anyone have any advice for dealing with that weather helm (other than reducing sail to reduce the heel). I've learned to watch the water and anticipate the gusts, and I head-up a little and ease the main just before they arrive, but those actions reduce the drive and sacrifice the potential benefit of the gust.

Is there anything else I could be doing, or is this excessive weather helm just something we have to live with? It seems a lot worse than other boats I've sailed.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 08:24:35

<< typical summer afternoon on SF Bay >>

Yes sir... SF bay must be a screamer..

<< turning up in the gusts >>

I was having significant gusts yesterday, almost bursts.. you could see the cats paws coming and bam. Once they were over a certain strength it was pretty much all you could do but turn up. I've only had a few other days sailing in gustier conditions.

Anyhoo.. you probably know all this but this is what I attempt:

reef
tighten up the topping lift to open the leech.
let out the boom.
release the outhaul
loosen the boom vang ( I don't have one )

( Make the mainsail into a wing )

110 jib bring the car forward.

Pinching into the wind before it hits.

Edited by - redeye on 03/31/2014 10:38:43

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 09:33:34

Lee, it sounds like you are doing it mostly right. Generally, weather helm is the result when a boat is overpowered, or the sailplan is unbalanced, or the rig is not tuned correctly.

You reduce the power of your sails, generally, by trimming them flatter, or, when trimming is no longer enough to keep the boat on it's feet, by reducing sail area. You flatten them by increasing tension on the backstay adjuster (which, on a masthead-rigged boat, reduces headstay sag), the outhaul, the downhaul or halyard or cunningham, the mainsheet, the boom vang, and the jibsheet. When reducing sail area, you should generally start with the mainsail, because it is the sail that is most responsible for creating heeling moment.

When you reef the mainsail, you also are improving the balance of the sailplan. You can improve it further by easing the traveler to leeward. By doing so, you are reducing the amount of power that the mainsail is generating as compared with the jib. If you ease the traveler until the mainsail luffs, then in effect, the boat is being entirely powered by the jib alone. As you begin to ease the traveler, you will, of course, begin to see the leading edge of the mainsail luff. Most of us have been taught that luffing the mainsail is a bad thing, but experienced racers will tell you that, in overpowering winds, it is good to ease the traveler until a large bubble is created in the leading edge of the mainsail. It effectively reduces the power generated by the mainsail in relation to the jib, and, it reduces heeling moment. In those conditions, you don't usually want to luff the mainsail completely. You want to keep a little pressure on it, because it will help the boat point to windward.

Helmsmanship - When most people feel the tiller tug on their hand in a gust, they instinctively pull harder on the tiller, to counteract that pressure. That's the wrong thing to do. When you feel that tug, ease your pull on it very slightly. In a sense, the boat is telling you that it wants to point higher. Let it. Why? Because it will help keep the boat on its feet, and when it heels, that creates drag, which slows the boat down. Whenever you feel the tiller pulling in your hand, that constitutes drag. If you pull back against it, you are simply increasing drag. Let the boat come up to windward when it wants to. It will not only keep the boat on its feet and maximize your boat speed, but it will also take a bite to windward, and the hardest ground for a sailboat to gain is to windward, so you should take it whenever you can get it.

Rig Tuning - I posted an article in the racing tips area of this website that describes my method of rig tuning. The rig tuning part is on the last page of my article. Dave Holcomb also posted an excellent article in the tech tips area. I suggest you read both.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 10:23:14

Lee, do you have the original C25 rudder? I had a similar problem with severe weather helm (in 10 knot wind the tiller would be under my chin!) I switched to the 2nd generation rudder. This cured the problem, in fact is was like adding power steering...

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 03/31/2014 : 12:03:47

Steve... Great plug for the "Tech Tips" section on this site. My personal favorite article is how to point:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/snkpoint.asp

Hats off to those who submitted articles for the Tech Tips.

Oh and for the record I hate you all... another month (to the day) before I am allowed to splash (lake is still solid too).

Link to LIVE marina cam... nope that camera isn't out of white balance. That'd be SNOW.
http://www.poconoactionsports.com/marinacam/livecam.html

Edited by - shnool on 03/31/2014 12:05:29

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/01/2014 : 02:54:35

I was crew on a Catalina 22 in the races Sunday. I do not know what the wind actually was, but it was kicking up pretty good. Reef in main and running a 110 jib. Water over the coming twice. What a great day. Broke a pintle on the way in after the races.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/01/2014 : 03:51:20

We didn't even have many windsurfers. Usually on a day like that 10-15 people show up. There was one guy whipping across the lake and he was on the downwind side crackin across the water.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/01/2014 : 07:15:23

Lee, I agree with Derek that the balance rudder is a great improvement--like "power steering"... I also made that change. However, I didn't find that it significantly reduced weather helm (the degree of leeward helm required to hold course)--it mostly reduced the arm strength to counteract it (by a lot).

The basic reason weather helm increases with heel is that as rudder becomes less vertical, it acts less like a rudder and more like the flap on an airplane. Thus, its "lift to windward" is increasingly becoming lift that pushes the stern up and the bow down--also increasing drag. And part of the blade is being lifted out of the water due to the boat's beam, further reducing its effectiveness. Eventually you don't have sufficient lateral "lift" to prevent rounding up. (The "Open" class ocean racers, with twin rudders, have each one canted outward so it is more vertical when heeled.)

So, the key to prevent rounding up is to keep her on her feet--starting with de-powering (as Steve describes) and then reducing the main. The reason to start with the main, recognizing it takes more effort than rolling up some headsail, is that the main has more of its area (and therefore "center of effort") higher up, so it generates more heel relative to its drive. And it reduces the forces aft of the keel that are trying to push stern around and round up the boat. Racers generally reef the main earlier and to a greater extent than they downsize the headsail, for these reasons.

You mention a greater tendency to round up on a reach... That's when your blown-out main is most exposed, relative to the headsail, and its excessive draft generates too much lateral push relative to its forward drive. And rolling up most of your genny just increases that imbalance.

All of this strongly suggests replacing your main if you want to enjoy sailing (and be competitive) in big air. If that's your goal (and you have strong arms), I'd strongly recommend investing in the main--probably full-battened, loose-footed, with two reefs--before worrying about the rudder. (Then again, if you want to go out there and bang around in big chop, you want a rudder that isn't going to snap off...

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/01/2014 07:23:10

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/01/2014 : 07:28:21

Excellent analysis, Dave!

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Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 04/01/2014 : 21:14:12

Thanks for the suggestions Steve and Dave. I guess the new main has to move up on my lengthy list of ways to spend money on this boat. I've actually just bought a new balanced rudder, Derek, and I'm hoping to hang it this coming weekend; I'm expecting that it'll make it easier to deal with the weather helm, albeit at the sacrifice of some headway. I was just wondering if there might be something I've overlooked, but I quite understand that a kid-glove-soft main with a single reef is easily overpowered. I've even set the mast up with maybe 3" of forward bend when the backstay is cranked-down, trying to flatten this old rag. It seems to help in beating, but the forward bend does essentially nothing when the boom is out to either side on a reach. So I guess I'll have to start writing to Santa right now.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 10:10:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lee Panza
 I've actually just bought a new balanced rudder, Derek, and I'm hoping to hang it this coming weekend;<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I would be interested in your results after you give the new rudder a try with your current sails.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 11:17:13

I think of trying to make the mainsail into a wing, like the windsurfing sails we usta use. Illustrated in a friend Chris Voith's shot here. Converting the wind into forward motion rather than heel.. don't have a main sheet on the sail and you are clipped into the sail about the middle of the boom. No heel on a windsurfing board, and we were always overpowered....

Boy.. I wish I had a sail shape like that on the Catalina.

ANyhoo... I attempt to get an airfoil going on the main, rather than using it like a windbreak.

Edited by - redeye on 04/04/2014 10:45:04

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 11:53:06

I was under the impression, when you were in heavy wind, that you pulled the traveler to windward, to allow the boom the ability to rise and lower with gusts, much as it would if you let the mainsheet out. From "How to Trim Sails", by Peter Schweer

I keep trying to photograph other boats and see if I can correlate what I see and read with what I set on my boat. I seem to see a lot of flat sails...

Edited by - redeye on 04/02/2014 11:53:57

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 12:35:29

One of my fav sailboat shots...

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islander
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 12:50:43

Gee Ray, That right about when you were shouting for Rowdy to get out of the way?

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 13:17:22

<< Gee Ray, That right about when you were shouting for Rowdy to get out of the way? >>

Yeah.. right.. my Catalina 25 will keep up with Rowdy...

That's an incredible shot that ... what I would give to shoot boats for a living...

Ya know... it is so weird to look at airplane wings, they look so flat to be producing lift.

I wish I could have been shooting on Sunday.. and taking shots of how my sails were set. I'm sure that would have been a hoot.

Well... Lee should be the one to tell us how to set sails in big wind.. on San Fran Bay.. Remind me to ask him at the end of this summer

Edited by - redeye on 04/02/2014 13:28:35

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 13:29:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 I was under the impression, when you were in heavy wind, that you pulled the traveler to windward, to allow the boom the ability to rise and lower with gusts, much as it would if you let the mainsheet out. From "How to Trim Sails", by Peter Schweer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That isn't consistent with the consensus of all the authorities I have read, or with my own experience. I just now picked up this blurb from the Ullman Sails website: "As the boat begins to be overpowered, the traveler should be eased down to reduce weather helm and keep the boat at less than 25 degrees of heel."

You might want to do that in lighter air, to induce twist in the mainsail. If you look at the photo of "Rowdy," she appears to be in lighter winds, with fairly flattish seas. Her boom is somewhat eased and the boom is being allowed to rise a bit, which induces twist in the upper part of the sail. The reason for doing that is because the wind direction at the top of the mast in light air is slightly different from it's direction in stronger winds, so, you induce twist so that the sail is at it's most efficient angle of attack, both at the top of the sail, as well as lower down.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/02/2014 13:32:20

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 13:35:53

Steve.. I saw that also.. ( easing the traveler ) and on ulmans most basic mainsail sheet rules on their webpage.

Mine always stays tied down in the middle.. so now I'm gonna hafta make it adjustable again to see what I can learn.

Thanks everyone for commenting.

I've been rather surprised at how STRAIGHT the twist has been in many of the racing boats I've photographed.

The other thing that I was kinda surprised at was ulman saying to keep the boom on the center line. I'd seen so many shots with the boom out like on Rowdy.

Edited by - redeye on 04/02/2014 13:39:50

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 14:46:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 One of my fav sailboat shots...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Rowdy's sister-ship, Spartan, is here in Mystic fairly regularly. They're Herreshoff New York 40s (65' LOA)--beautiful thoroughbreds! When either enters a classic yacht race, everyone else is competing for second!

EDIT: I was wrong--Spartan is a NY 50. They look almost identical.

BTW, Ray, your windsurfing pic is kinda big...

(Only Frank can read this thread easily.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/02/2014 14:58:49

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 17:21:15

Wings are cool, but I suspect that not heeling a windsurfer has more to do with body position effectively countering the heeling force, much like hiking out on small, light board boats like lasers and Sunfish.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 18:25:26

Yup--I don't think even a trapeze would do the trick on a C-25.

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