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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

standing rigging

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bradminda
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/05/2014 : 11:08:27

I have an 82 standard rig full keel boat that but for say 3 years has been in fresh water in central California. My standing rigging is original. It is currently on the trailer so inspection is easy. Regardless of inspection and considering the rigging is original should I replace it. I plan to put it in the SF bay next summer.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2014 : 11:40:07

Inspections are problematic. The SS cable tends to deteriorate more inside the swages, or sleeves that hold it to the hardware, where you can only see it with an x-ray. The deterioration can be in the form of "crevice corrosion" where the surface of the wire shows only microscopic cracks, but the major corrosion is below the surface. This happens somewhat quicker in salt water than fresh, but most people will say 32 years is past the threshold for peace of mind.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2014 : 16:15:29

Replace, standardize on a single size wire and get open turnbuckles. Don't forget you can simulate an adjustable backstay with a short backstay and a purchase. Think about what you want new rigging to give you and order it.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2014 : 16:46:33

SF Bay is very demanding on boat hardware. If the rigging is indeed original, it's a no brainer.

Edited by - OJ on 02/05/2014 17:57:13

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2014 : 21:52:19

Agreed: a "no-brainer."

Summer on San Francisco Bay is quite challenging in a 25-footer. Within just a few hundred yards you can go from essentially calm to 25 knots (like coming out of the lee of Angel Island at Point Blunt), and you can find yourself pushing the limits of a boat that's in excellent condition - or exceeding the limits of a boat with critical systems somewhat compromised.

Consider using swageless fittings: the initial cost can be a lot higher than swaged fittings, but by the second round of replacement you come out ahead. I ran the numbers before making that decision myself. Besides, you can do it all yourself instead of having a rigging shop (or Catalina Direct) provide it, and more importantly you can adjust it yourself later if you choose to.

I'd close with a friendly "good luck" except that the standing rigging is one place where luck is not enough.

- Lee

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2014 : 06:15:53

Like Dave said above, crevice corrosion where you can't visually see is the problem. Like rust it never sleeps. My boat is an 87 and I replaced all of the standing rigging for the second season after I bought the boat. Peace of mine. Now I'm comfortable when the boat is pushed to the limits.

Edited by - on

bradminda
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2014 : 18:55:49

Thanks to all that have confirmed my thoughts.

Edited by - on

Phredde
Navigator

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125 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2014 : 17:08:04

Is there a recommended replacement age for standing rigging in a saltwater environment? The parts I can see look to be in OK shape. But the previous owner told me he had replaced the original rigging before I bought the boat 18 years ago. So it's probably about 20 years old now. Any advice?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2014 : 19:01:55

Saltwater and San Francisco Bay - I think you're sailing on borrowed time.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2014 : 21:16:43

quote:
Originally posted by Phredde

Is there a recommended replacement age for standing rigging in a saltwater environment?

Phredde, I've read in a number of places that ten years is a reasonable useful life for stainless steel wire rigging in a salt environment. I'm always suspicious of the accuracy of nice round numbers like that, but I don't think any 'authoritative' person would argue that twenty years is safe.

Your standing rigging is one place where 'good enough' really ain't. I've seen individual wires pop without losing a rig entirely, so there's some margin of safety, but you'll never know how much more stress your rig can take at its advanced age.

I don't want to be bouncing around on the Bay some afternoon and hear Coast Guard Group San Francisco put out a call about a sailboat in distress that lost its mast.

Edited by - on

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2014 : 04:34:12

I shortened my uppers for a bridge rig, and used swageless fittings. You'd swear they will never hold, but they do. They are supposed to be stronger than swaged.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2014 : 07:06:39

Among those writing or reading this thread, how many have had a cable failure? What happened, did you only snap a shroud or completely dismast the boat? I've been lucky (so far), aside from my forestay unraveling near the top swage due to my furler getting stuck, I've not had a problem [yet]! 20 years does seem like borrowed time however...

Edited by - on

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2014 : 12:54:47

had a dismasting on my first boat aprox 20 some years ago (newport 21). a pin broke on the single shroud. deck stepped mast, so it just twisted up the mast step.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2014 : 21:00:34

Had a bronze open turnbuckle pop on shroud on a 23 Aquarius but mast didn't fall. Got sail down quickly and motored back to port.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 08:51:13

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

...I've been lucky (so far), aside from my forestay unraveling near the top swage due to my furler getting stuck, I've not had a problem [yet]! 20 years does seem like borrowed time however...

Bruce, all standing rigging on Passage when you bought her was replaced in 2004, from CD. The rigger that installed it was impressed with its quality and fit. (He fabricated rigging for many larger boats.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/06/2014 08:58:04

sdpinaz
Navigator

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USA
193 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 09:21:52

Does the Catalina Direct kit come with all shrouds the same diameter? that would be nice....

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 11:51:28

Dave - I'd agree wholeheartedly that the rigging is impressive. When Scott and I took down the mast this spring we did not find any meathooks or kinks anywhere, and I was extremely careful when raising the mast not to put any kinks into the rigging. The swaged ends looked good and felt solid (no swizzle inside) and no signs of corrosion. I'm confident they'll be fine for another 5 years at least, but I'll keep an eye on them.

I do have a question for the brain trust here. I keep the lowers snug but not twangy-tight. The leeward shrouds naturally go loose on a reach. Does flexing and tightening repeatedly by sailing and tacking put more strain on them than if they were twangy-tight?

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 13:43:56

quote:
Does the Catalina Direct kit come with all shrouds the same diameter?

Sorry but no.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 15:44:41

quote:
Originally posted by islander

quote:
Does the Catalina Direct kit come with all shrouds the same diameter?

Sorry but no.

What difference does that make? You can't interchange uppers with lowers...

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 16:22:26

Upper are a heavier gauge than lowers. They take much more of the load and are your saving grace if the the lowers fail.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 18:19:03

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

Among those writing or reading this thread, how many have had a cable failure? What happened, did you only snap a shroud or completely dismast the boat?...

Bruce, I've sailed two boats that had partial failures of the standing rigging. In both cases it was 1x19 SS wire rope.

On one, I was having trouble lowering the (hank-on) jib until I realized that one wire in the forestay had snapped and had partially unraveled. On the other one I was cleaning up the boat after an especially vigorous workout, and I heard a funny "ping" sound close to my ear; when I turned to look at the lower shroud I saw a broken wire waving at me as if to say, "look, jerk, if you're gonna sail like that you'd better change these cables."

They say the third time's the charm...

In both cases a wire broke in the lower portion of the length of the rope, but not at a swage. I can't figure out why.

Edited by - on

sdpinaz
Navigator

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USA
193 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 18:23:08

it would be nice if they were all the same. I would just like to have heavier lowers as well, that would not add much weight/windage and then everything would be the same.... I don't use one, but it would also allow you to use one guage to tune your rig instead of two....

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 19:00:25

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Panza

...In both cases a wire broke in the lower portion of the length of the rope, but not at a swage. I can't figure out why.

I'd say it's a function of the degree of salt exposure, which logically decreases with height off the water. As said, generally the greatest danger is from salt and other contaminates that migrate down inside a swage where the resulting damage is out of sight. But "meat-hooks" above that are very loud warnings of disaster to follow.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2014 : 08:13:59

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

I do have a question for the brain trust here. I keep the lowers snug but not twangy-tight. The leeward shrouds naturally go loose on a reach. Does flexing and tightening repeatedly by sailing and tacking put more strain on them than if they were twangy-tight?

Again, is it better from a metal-fatigue point of view to keep the lowers taught or just snug? The boat points well with a wee-bit of weather helm so the mast position and rake are fine.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2014 : 11:40:54

One SURE recommendation is to replace the closed body turnbuckles with open ones. When i redid our standing rigging, the rigger told me: "Good thing you changed it out today!" When he was removing the backstay turnbuckle, it just crumbled in half!!! Even if you don't replace your rig, change out those darned closed body turnbuckles, even in fresh water.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2014 : 13:15:10

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

I do have a question for the brain trust here. I keep the lowers snug but not twangy-tight. The leeward shrouds naturally go loose on a reach. Does flexing and tightening repeatedly by sailing and tacking put more strain on them than if they were twangy-tight?

Again, is it better from a metal-fatigue point of view to keep the lowers taught or just snug? The boat points well with a wee-bit of weather helm so the mast position and rake are fine.

No shrouds should be bar-tight, but the forward lowers should be taut. Their purpose is to prevent the lower part of the mast from ever leaning aft. If you have a backstay adjuster, the aft lowers should be slightly eased, or even somewhat slack if you're a racer. The aft lowers permit the lower part of the mast to bend forward slightly when the backstay adjuster is tensioned.

If the boat has no backstay adjuster, then the aft lowers can be snugged down, with no slack.

If your only concern is from a metal fatigue point of view, then it is always best that the metal never flex, but, if you are interested in maximizing boat performance, then you will be willing to accept a little flexing, with the understanding that it might require you to replace the shroud a little sooner than otherwise.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/07/2014 15:01:08

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