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Rudder Repairable??

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DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/27/2014 : 08:16:19

Hi Everyone,

I'm posting because I began one of my many winter projects(disassembly and reconditioning of the rudder)and wanted to see whether or not it is considered repairable. I've checked out how others have repaired theirs before and think I have a good idea what to do for the seams that have separated over time but the thing that worries me is the slight cracks and slight enlongation of the bolt hole on the lower pintle area.

I am really hoping the rudder is salvageable as it seems quite sturdy and breaking out the cash for a new one will hit me hard.

Right now the rudder has been disassembled, power washed and is sitting upright in a moderately warm to cool garage to dry out.

Please take a look at the few photos I took as any advice is appreciated.

Thank you,
DB

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2014 : 11:33:14

You can't really know whether enough moisture got inside the rudder to damage it structurally, but on the surface, the damage looks minor. Some people have reported that theirs looked ok, and just snapped off while they were sailing. Mine had big lumps on the sides, where alot of moisture got inside, and yet it never failed after 23 years, even though I regularly loaded it up, heeling the boat intentionally, just for the heck of it.

I'd store it near the furnace, if possible, and let it dry during the winter. In the spring, I'd seal any openings with an epoxy filler and not worry about it. I would always store it indoors during the winter. If you think the hole is elongated very much, you could fill it with an epoxy filler and re-drill it.

If you want a back-up, in case it fails and your engine won't start, you could fashion a piece of 2X12 lumber into the approximate shape of the rudder, and keep it onboard. The exact shape isn't terribly critical for use as an emergency replacement. If you plan to do any distance cruises, I would recommend you fabricate a back-up rudder, so you don't get stuck far from home.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/27/2014 11:46:25

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2014 : 11:50:20

I let mine dry this summer, out of the water in the sun and then poured G-flex into the cracks.

Edited by - on

cat25
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2014 : 12:50:07

I drilled out 1 inch holes centered on the existing ones. Then I drilled out foam around the hole extending to the close side of the rudder.The cavity was about 3x3 inches. With the rudder laying flat I taped over the hole and turned the rudder over. Then thickened epoxie was poured into each hole. When cured drill holes needed for hardware. Good luck Ken

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2014 : 13:17:12

Im planning to sand and epoxy the seam all the way around the rudder. Using a powerwasher I thought I could get more paint off then what actually came off. I am assuming I will have to sand the rest

Anyone have a recommendation whether to use a palm or orbital or other sander? Preferably the cheapest lol

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2014 : 21:00:31

I guess my other question is how do I know if it's a foam or wood core?

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2014 : 04:05:45

DBuoy: You have what looks to be the unbalanced rudder (fairly straight leading edge) which I would assume is a wood core. Your damage looks minimal. seal and sail......

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2014 : 06:41:04

My '85 original equipment rudder (unbalanced, with straight forward and aft edges) had a wood core in the head where the pintles were attached, and seemed to be solid fiberglass below that. That appears to be the one you have. I replaced it with the balanced model that Catalina started using around '88, or maybe '87... It was foam-cored throughout.

The elongated hole(s) are fairly common evidence of downward pressure being put on the rudder, as when somebody accidentally falls on the tiller. It's likely that water entered the core there, and some rot exists. When you drill it out as mentioned above, before filling with thickened epoxy, ream out the core around the hole with a bent nail or allen wrench in the drill, so the filler extends well inside the glass shell.

If it's all mush in there, I'd replace the rudder. The most common failure is a horizontal break right at the level of the lower pintle, where the greatest bending force is imposed, particularly when the boat is heeled and pitching in waves. In significant wind and waves, a sudden rudder break can be way too exciting, and even dangerous. Yes, you can get home steering with the outboard, but you might be steering with a wet seat.

PS: I really like your graphic!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/28/2014 06:49:09

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2014 : 09:21:29

My 82 had the same damage showing as yours and was the straight forward rudder (unbalanced). I wanted the balanced rudder so it was a no brainer for me. (I made my own from the drawings in the tech section) I then inspected my old rudder and the cracks at the seam were because the wood was wet and swelled up opening the seams. I don't know if this is your case but inspect it carefully. This is just my experience for what it is worth.
P.S. the balanced rudder is one of the best improvements I have made.

Wes

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2014 : 19:10:34

My crack looked similar. I had it repaired and check out what happened on my first sail after repair.
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25166& whichpage=1
Look at page 2.

My snapped in half right below lower pintle. Rudder looked original ('85) but it was foam inside.

I've heard of many people fixing them and no issues and i heard some "adventurous" stories. I'm one of the adventurous i guess and it cracked when i was out in about 10 to 15 knots of wind. Luckily it was fairly calm as it can get quite choppy here on great lakes.

At the end of the day it's your call what you feel comfortable with... if you're ok with dealing with snapped rudder in few months or few years down the road, then fix it.... if you want to avoid dealing with that when you're out with your family get balanced rudder and you will be amazed ho much better it is.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2014 : 21:23:41

Man, this really scares me lol. I guess on the one hand being that if the later model rudders are cored with foam it has to be the fiberglass that does most of the loading. That being said, I believe that the cracks are superficial (compared to a lot I've seen)and the enlongation was definitly helped by the loose lower gudgeon which is being repaired. The seam is split though which worries me about water infiltration but it is sitting in a warm place drying so hopefully some testing doesn't reveal rot(not sure how to prove that yet).

I probably going to attempt to repair it do to my poor mans budget and live with yet another lingering impending doom scenario. I miss the bliss of ignorance, sailing was always more fun when I didn't know I was in danger lol.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 04:52:11

DBuoy, your damage really looks minimal compared to Dan's, so No Worries. Work on balancing your sailplan and then you don't even need a rudder. :O)

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 04:54:08

Aw, don't make too much of it. The older, unbalanced, plywood cored rudder was more robust than the later, foam cored versions, and is less prone to snap. But, even if it does, the boat will vane to windward without a rudder. You can motor home, and you can carry a home built backup rudder. Meanwhile, you should keep an eye out for a boat that is being parted out, and try to pick up another rudder that way. We see them periodically on our swap meet. By repairing yours now, you might buy enough time to find a used, moderately priced replacement.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 06:11:10

Yea, sometimes you can only do so much. I've got a reliable outboard that starts every time and was just serviced sitting also in a warm garage for winter. I'll be sure to throw up some photos when the project gets more underway for archival purposes.

Im just excited for next season

with my first mate!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 06:27:26

Qh man! It's good to see the old radio towers in Annapolis Harbor! I spend alot of time racing in that area each summer, and will be racing my new-to-me Cal 25 next summer in the Friday night beer cans, as well as on weekends.

Come to think of it, I'm going to need crew to help race the boat next summer. The boat will be docked in Back Creek, just unside the lift bridge. Let me know if you're interested.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 06:44:17

Thats awesome! I would love to help you crew! I think you mean Spa creek, thats the one with the bridge. Im on Back creek, the next one over. I almost ended up with a Cal-25 instead of the Cat. The thing had been setup soley for racing, nothing else. All wood on the inside was rotten, which wasnt what I was looking for lol.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 07:30:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidBuoy
 Thats awesome! I would love to help you crew! I think you mean Spa creek, thats the one with the bridge. Im on Back creek, the next one over. I almost ended up with a Cal-25 instead of the Cat. The thing had been setup soley for racing, nothing else. All wood on the inside was rotten, which wasnt what I was looking for lol.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You're right. My Cal slip is in Spa Creek. Back Creek was on my mind because I have recently been crewing on a Cal 29 and a Beneteau First 40.7 sailing out of Back Creek.

The Cal I'm buying might be the one you considered. Her name is Fahrvergnügen. She has been completely re-rigged to race, all the deck hardware has been re-bedded, she has been Imroned, has a recent 6 hp 4 cyc. outboard, and has a full complement of racing sails. The interior is rough, but solid. It's turnkey ready-to-race, but it would need some serious interior cleaning and painting to make it suitable for cruising with a family. I only plan to use it to race, but intend to clean and paint the interior anyway, just to make it habitable enough for an occasional overnight.

I'll be heading for Maryland, probably in mid to late April. Email me about that time, and we'll do some racing.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 07:41:07

I cant recall the name so its quite possible, it was on back creek. I needed something the significant other would feel more comfortable in and am extremely happy (so far) with the Cat. Picked it up towards the end of summer and took it out every weekend day it wasn't pouring rain almost into December.
You can see David at the left with the tarp at the first slip. (photo taken from my apartment)

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 09:58:32

David,
The cracks near the edge of your rudder at the pintle hardware look just about identical to those I found on my original 28-year old rudder. It's hard to identify from your photos what the black lines around the leading and trailing edges are - cracks or filled in material?

I would bet that after the repairs your rudder will be fine for sailing in breezes up to 10 knots on the bay.

I had the same concerns about my rudder, so I spent a number of months drying it out indoors, then carrying out a big repair to add 7 or 8 layers of new fiberglass over the areas from above the top pintle to below the lower pintle, on both sides. I ground out the edge all around and filled it with epoxy. I sanded, primed, and painted it. I learned more than I wanted to learn about fiberglass work using the West System. The rudder looked great.

It served me well for a year and a half, until one day after sailing down from the Magothy River with 2 friends to St. Michaels for a weekend. The wind picked up on the return trip, and we were beating into 20-25 knots and 3-foot chop on the Miles River when the rudder cracked right below the bottom pintle, as others have mentioned. It turns out that intact fiberglass is necessary but not sufficient to have a sturdy rudder. The wood core in the original rudders must be strong also.

The sailing trip was over, and we limped back to the marina in St. Michaels waiting for a car ride home. Steering with the outboard was difficult but it got us the 2 or 3 miles back.

My new balanced rudder with the foam core should last me as long as I keep the boat.

Edited by - JohnP on 01/29/2014 10:01:13

Katitude
Member

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USA
31 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2014 : 17:34:01

So.. I have photos of my rudder.. which snapped while in the san francisco bay a couple of months ago. It looked better than yours does now. I would not trust the rudder.. I would not fix the rudder.. it's like gambling with the steering wheel on your car. I loaded pictures of my broken rudder, but havent figured out how to post yet.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2014 : 20:35:36

Kathi, Todd,
click here to login to the Members area.
Click on Manage my Albums and add an Album for your Rudder
then Click on Upload Pics and upload your rudder pics adding them to the Rudder Album
Then Manage My Albums again, publish your new Rudder Album
use the Forum Link code tool to create the code needed to add them to the forum.

Then paste that here.

Contact me if you have any issues going that route.

Paul

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2014 : 15:12:42

Well I decided to fork out the cash for a new one. I am planning on getting a balanced one, are there any recommendations on where to get it from? Catalina direct, foss, etc.

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2014 : 17:44:02

Both of mine were Catalina rudders, loved the balanced and the unbalanced was Ok. I like a rudder that I can work on and that means a fiberglass rudder to me.
BTW I always thought I would fit a J 24 rudder if I ever needed another rudder. You would think they would be plentiful.

Edited by - pastmember on 03/09/2014 17:45:22

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 08:48:13

Catalina Direct should have the fiberglass balanced rudder. That's where I got mine. Here's [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25166&whichpage=3"]another thread[/url] that references a builder called "Finco" who apparently has made some of the same design for the C-25.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 13:50:55

Spoke with Bob Walker at Foss (florida) and he's going to get me one in two weeks. Super nice guy and glad to be going with him.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2014 : 06:29:09

New rudder from Foss Foam Florida arrived yesterday!
Now finish drilling the holes for hardware, Epoxy inside the holes,
sand, barrier coat, then bam, back on the boat until it gets pulled
in two weeks for the bottom job! Here's a couple of progress photos..
Tryin to make the old rudder serviceable until ultimately springing for the Foss unit.
Amazing turn around and service on their part by the way.
From start of production of the rudder to it being at my door took two weeks!

Edited by - DavidBuoy on 03/27/2014 06:33:51

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