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 Outhaul and topping lift - led aft
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szymek
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Canada
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Initially Posted - 07/22/2013 :  18:28:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I picked up from CD outhaul and topping lift. When it arrived I noticed that it came with cam cleats to be installed on the boom. Well since I already have triple deck organizers and triple clutches for both sides (found it over a year ago for a good price - I guess it's time to install it).

Is leading topping lift and outhaul to cockpit even good idea? Now that lines will be led on the boom, does it mean that when I’m on broad reach or run, tension on the outhaul and topping lift will change?

Should I turn the lines down towards mast plate and deck organizers at the boom or mast? I was thinking boom… but let me know.

I looked for double cheek block but I can’t find anything that is fairly small that will fit on the boom…. So I’m leaning toward picking up 2 more Harken Micro Cheek Blocks and stager them. I plan to run both lines on one side as the other side of the boom has reefing line. Any other ideas?

Looking forward to your advice.

Daniel
Shy Tuna
1985 C-25: SR/FK/TR #4838

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
5576 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2013 :  20:44:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are some who use the topping lift to affect sail shape--I'm one who believes a loose-footed main and multi-part out-haul is the better way to do that--an aerodynamics debate for another time... I left my topping lift set so it was barely slack with the sail up. It was adjustable so I could haul it up when moored.

So, my priority would be to lead the out-haul to a clutch, and leave the topping lift adjustment on the boom. I never did the former because I didn't have the loose-footed main. If I had raced her, it would have been one of the first changes I made.

Turning a line from the boom to the mast base, as I see it, should be done from the boom rather than the mast. If you put the turning block on the mast, the line will be pulled or eased more as you tack (or jibe).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/22/2013 20:45:41
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awetmore
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Response Posted - 07/22/2013 :  21:24:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with the priority, outhaul aft, topping lift on the boom if you only bother with one. I have that setup on my current boat.

The topping lift is still occasionally useful in super light air. If there is so little wind that the boom weight is pulling down then mainsail leech then you'll close the leech and cause the wind to detach. Supporting the boom very lightly opens it back up and will help you out.

However when the air is that light it's not a big deal to walk forward and adjust it. Likewise I never find it annoying to adjust the topping lift and outhaul while racing (that's how my Catalina 25 was setup, and we raced it) even if they are on the boom, because you have enough crew to do so.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
1986 Pearson 28-2 #107
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra" TR/FK/dinette #4670
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shnool
Mainsheet Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 07/23/2013 :  03:55:49  Show Profile  Visit shnool's Homepage  Send shnool an AOL message  Send shnool a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe my terminology is wonked... Isn't a topping lift merely a halyard lead to the aft end of the boom to lift it?

I solo sail a bunch and the outhaul is on the boom... it's lead to the forward end, then back, so pulling the outhaul back, tightens. My point is... leading it down and around the organizers seems to put is father away (unless you want crew to adjust it).

As for the top lift, mine is run to the cabintop with a cleat... and I ONLY use the top lift for shape when beating upwind in a heavy chop and light wind... the boom skies in these conditions, the vang is less effective to prevent the DROP part of the sky. So we tighten topping lift, and tighten vang to hold the boom at "X" It helps (some). A boom kicker, or a rigid vang would do the same.

I know I am a Capri and all, just wanted to share what we have.

The outhaul on the boom, literally puts it directly above the skippers position.

John Schramm, Anticipation a 1982 Capri 25 fin keel, hull 278, Sailing with the Paupack Sail Club, Lake Wallenpaupack, PA
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pastmember
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Response Posted - 07/23/2013 :  07:20:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have had two 25s and on one I led both back on the cabintop, the other I left them on the boom. I liked the cleaner look of the boat with the lines left on the boom. Function wise there is a real advantage to having the outhaul led back because you will need it if the wind pipes up and it is much safer to deal with it led back. So I would lead the outhaul back and leave the topping lift on the boom. Consider running the boom vang back rather than the topping lift, the boom vang can also be problematic in high wind.

Frank Hopper
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awetmore
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Response Posted - 07/23/2013 :  07:32:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are two common implementations for a topping lift. One is as a second halyard. Doing this on a Catalina 25 means converting the boat to internal (inside the mast) halyards to be able to have 4 halyards on the mast instead of 2. That's a big project.

The other design for a topping lift is a fixed pennant that goes from the masthead to near the end of the boom. A block is attached to the lower end of the pennant, and a line runs from the boom, up to that block, and back down and along the boom to a cleat of some sort. This is the design that the Catalina Direct kit uses.

The Catalina Direct kit isn't my favorite implementation, and honestly I'd return it and make your own if it isn't too late. They use wire for the topping lift, which makes it very heavy and for us meant that it liked to catch onto sail battens. It died on my old Catalina 25 when the vinyl covered steel wire caught the halyard and the vinyl got tangled into the halyard.

On my Pearson and now on my old Catalina 25 we've made the fixed pennant with very thin dyneema (1/8" or 2.2mm Amsteel Blue). This is light enough that you can adjust it once to be just longer than the sail leech. When the sail is down the topping does it's job. When the sail is up the topping lift blows backwards (away from the leech) and doesn't get caught up. It can still be adjusted for sail shape if necessary.

If you take this route use a lightweight block, like a Harken micro-sized Carbo Block.

My other dislike for the Catalina Direct kit is that they use a crappy clamcleat for fixing the line. A small nylon horn cleat is a lot more appropriate for a low tension line like this.

They also don't give you enough line to run the topping lift (or outhaul) to your cabin top if you desire.

You can build the dyneema option for less than the cost of the Catalina Direct kit.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
1986 Pearson 28-2 #107
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra" TR/FK/dinette #4670
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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/23/2013 :  14:28:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pastmember

. . . Function wise there is a real advantage to having the outhaul led back because you will need it if the wind pipes up and it is much safer to deal with it led back. So I would lead the outhaul back and leave the topping lift on the boom. Consider running the boom vang back rather than the topping lift, the boom vang can also be problematic in high wind.

Ditto. In general, I think the more competitive you are, the more lines come back to the cockpit. Me, now a cruiser, have both halyards, the outhaul and boom vang. Since the foresail remains in the raised position all season, I could cleat that on the mast and bring another line back, say the cunningham, for flattening the main in stiff winds.


1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

“There is nothing – absolutely nothing – half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” Kenneth Grahame
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shnool
Mainsheet Capri-25 Tech Editor

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886 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2013 :  19:28:13  Show Profile  Visit shnool's Homepage  Send shnool an AOL message  Send shnool a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Lets see... I have port jib, starboard jib, main halyard, topping lift, spin down haul, cunningham, spin pole topping lift lead to the cockpit... ON the boom I have vang, outhaul, and reef. Let's not forget traveler controls, mainsheet, jib sheets, and backstay all within my seating area. If you think that's a lot to mess with, you ought to see what it's like single handing the symmetrical spinnaker as well...

Is why I am still thinking I'd rather go with a rigid vang, the topping lift is a PITA to deal with.

John Schramm, Anticipation a 1982 Capri 25 fin keel, hull 278, Sailing with the Paupack Sail Club, Lake Wallenpaupack, PA
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szymek
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Canada
206 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2013 :  21:24:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the feedback!

It's too late for me to return it as i bought it at the end of last season - just got around to installing it now. And yes.. now I'm disappointed with the kit from CD. But I'll make it work.

I will buy longer length of line for the outhaul and micro cheek block and another micro block to turn it at the base of the mast. So i'll proceed with leading the outhoul to the clutch and I will leave topping lift on the boom. And yes... i already planned leading the boom vang to the clutch as well.

Thanks everyone!

Daniel
Shy Tuna
1985 C-25: SR/FK/TR #4838
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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/24/2013 :  05:23:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
<<The Catalina Direct kit isn't my favorite implementation >>
IMHO
Mine from CD works great. Really glad I added it.

<< They use wire for the topping lift, which makes it very heavy and for us meant that it liked to catch onto sail battens. >>

Mine does not catch. Is your block on the boom forward?

<< Catalina Direct kit is that they use a crappy clamcleat for fixing the line. >>

They use a state of the art clam cleat.( Clam Cleat, Racing Jr., Alum closed ) which is often on backorder if you try to find one... Works great.

<< A small nylon horn cleat is a lot more appropriate for a low tension line like this. >>

A horn cleat on the boom is a pain, lines ( and fingers ) get caught on them. Lay your hand on the boom, slide your fingers down the boom and under the horn and try to pull away.



"LeeKey" #4475 -Not Quite Water Tight-
Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
'84 Catalina 25 SR/FK

Edited by - redeye on 07/24/2013 05:34:07
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dlucier
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Response Posted - 07/24/2013 :  10:28:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by szymek

Is leading topping lift and outhaul to cockpit even good idea?


The only lines I've led to the cabintop are the topping lift, outhaul, and cunningham. Having the outhaul and cunningham led to the cabintop allows one to adjust them safely without standing as my boat is usually pounding to windward in a stiff breeze and heeling over pretty good when I need to make an adjustment. As to the topping lift, leading it aft made it easier for me to adjust with a bimini deployed and again, no standing or fumbling at the end of the boom.


Don Lucier

North Star SR/FK
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szymek
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Canada
206 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2013 :  16:35:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dlucier


The only lines I've led to the cabintop are the topping lift, outhaul, and cunningham. Having the outhaul and cunningham led to the cabintop allows one to adjust them safely without standing as my boat is usually pounding to windward in a stiff breeze and heeling over pretty good when I need to make an adjustment. As to the topping lift, leading it aft made it easier for me to adjust with a bimini deployed and again, no standing or fumbling at the end of the boom.



Hi Don

Did you use micro cheek block on the boom to bring it down to deck organizers?? I can't think of anything else I could do.... so let me know.

Daniel
Shy Tuna
1985 C-25: SR/FK/TR #4838
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awetmore
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1061 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2013 :  21:19:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redeye

<<The Catalina Direct kit isn't my favorite implementation >>
IMHO
Mine from CD works great. Really glad I added it.



I didn't say that it doesn't work. I said it isn't the best implementation. I used it, but the boat was better when we improved it.

quote:
Originally posted by redeye
<< They use wire for the topping lift, which makes it very heavy and for us meant that it liked to catch onto sail battens. >>
Mine does not catch. Is your block on the boom forward?



No. Having it catch or not will depend on how much roach your sail is cut with. Since we race the boat we have a larger roach than a stock sail might.

quote:
Originally posted by redeye
<< Catalina Direct kit is that they use a crappy clamcleat for fixing the line. >>

They use a state of the art clam cleat.( Clam Cleat, Racing Jr., Alum closed ) which is often on backorder if you try to find one... Works great.



The problem with the clamcleat is that it doesn't grab the line unless there is tension on it. You need to artificially add this for this use (the topping lift often has no tension on it). A standard cleat is faster to use.

quote:
Originally posted by redeye

A horn cleat on the boom is a pain, lines ( and fingers ) get caught on them. Lay your hand on the boom, slide your fingers down the boom and under the horn and try to pull away.



The topping lift horn cleat on my Pearson 28-2 boom (it's under the boom) has never caught on anything, human or otherwise, during the few hundred hours of sailing that I've done on this boat.

I've raced on Capri 22s with horn cleats on the boom too (for reefing and topping lift) and it doesn't seem to be a problem there either. I only have about 10-12 hours on those boats though.

It's not that the Catalina Direct Topping Lift kit is complete crap. It's that you can make a better one (works with large roach sails, weighs less, easier to adjust, and can be routed to the preferred location on your boat) for less money yourself. There is no advantage to buying the kit.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
1986 Pearson 28-2 #107
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra" TR/FK/dinette #4670
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awetmore
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Response Posted - 07/26/2013 :  08:46:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is what I mean by an dyneema topping lift flying out behind the mainsail:


We don't adjust the topping lift very often. It's set to this length (which keeps the boom off of the dodger when we're docked up) and it is a bit longer than the sail's leech. When the sail is fully raised the topping lift flies free.

To get this you do need to use the lightest block that you can find at the end. That is a Harken 351 which is something like 10 grams.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
1986 Pearson 28-2 #107
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra" TR/FK/dinette #4670
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gaucho9
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Response Posted - 08/02/2013 :  11:35:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone used the spinnaker halyard as a topping lift?

GAUCHO
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awetmore
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Response Posted - 08/02/2013 :  14:07:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The spinnaker halyard faces forward, your topping lift would need to face aft. This will result in a lot of friction and chafe.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
1986 Pearson 28-2 #107
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra" TR/FK/dinette #4670
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gaucho9
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Response Posted - 08/02/2013 :  20:54:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with you Alex. What would you recommend?

GAUCHO
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awetmore
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Response Posted - 08/02/2013 :  22:06:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Read the post that I wrote on 07/23/2013 : 07:32:38. It has a detailed recommendation for adding a topping lift to a Catalina 25. There is a followup debate and photo.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
1986 Pearson 28-2 #107
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra" TR/FK/dinette #4670
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