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Commodore
Russ Johnson

Members Avatar

USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2013 : 16:00:14

quote:
Originally posted by frog0911

I received one of these at 1105 today. This scam is to old to be tried in this day and age.

Did you receive that email from a forum user?
Please forward me the email, so I can try to prevent this spammer from using our website.
Thanks, Russ

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1762 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2013 : 18:19:31

New(?) member, MAM, sending spam emails to Association members ... I just got the following email:

Hello Buzz Maring

You received the following message from: mam (mamiedoe52@yahoo.com)

At: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/

Greetings Dear,
I introduce myself, my name is Ms. Mamie Doe, from the Republic Of Liberia and
resident in Lome Togo. My father was a politician and an individual venture
capital investor, but died during the crisis in my country. And being the only
duaghter whose name the will carries, I have inherited all his businesses and
funds, in this light I'm looking for a high network individual or company that
have vision, passion and a real sense of ownership by providing funds in cash as
a seed funding for business set up or upgrading of your business enterprises.
Based on my binding agreement to invest funds in business sector in your country
I'm willing to enter into private financing of capital-intensive projects with
you.

MY AIMS AND OBJECTIVES IS:
1. To Invest $6.4 US Dollars in real estate or.
2. To Invest in any business sector that is profitable.
3. Is it possible to get the funds back in the next 10 to 15years while the
investment is in progress?.

Conclusively, let me know in your response if you are interested to be appointed
as my partner.
If agreed with me, I will update you with more informations, and I hope this
will be the beginning of a prosperous relationship betw een us. If you are
interested, kindly get back to me through my pravite email address
(mamiedoe52@yahoo.com)
With Regards.
Yours Sincerely,
Mrs. Mamie Doe

Could you please boot her? Of course, I hate to pass up the opportunity to be her partner; maybe she has a Catalina 25 or 250, or a Capri 25

Thanks for the help!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2013 : 19:44:00

Me too... (twice). Same sender. I'm wondering what my cut is of the $6.4M.

Edited by - on

Commodore
Russ Johnson

Members Avatar

USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2013 : 21:05:42

Done
User: MAM locked

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2013 : 21:08:15

I got a forum email from a very nice sounding lady with a very sad story ;-(
Aww..... Looks like Mam - she struck again.

From: <forumadmin@catalina-capri-25s.org>
Date: August 28, 2013, 20:46:49 EDT
To: <bruce ross>
Subject: Sent From Association Forum by mam

Hello Voyager

You received the following message from: mam (mamiedoe52@yahoo.com)

At: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/

Greetings Dear,
I introduce myself, my name is Ms. Mamie Doe, from the Republic Of Liberia and resident in Lome Togo. My father was a politician and an individual venture capital investor, but died during the crisis in my country. And being the only duaghter ....

Edited by - Voyager on 08/28/2013 21:20:46

Commodore
Russ Johnson

Members Avatar

USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2013 : 21:35:25

Bruce,
For a nice lady who joined the forum today, she sure has been busy.
Russ

Edited by - on

C250 Editor
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 08:53:17

I got one of these as well. She must be a very generous woman, willing to share her fortune with so many of us.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 15:07:31

I recently made comments critical of the Vice Commodore in the racing forum. That entire thread (not just my comments) has been deleted, and it has not been moved to the Complaints thread. Please advise me who deleted it, and whether that officer's privileges have been revoked in accordance with the following rule as stated by the treasurer: "We the Officers/moderators will not delete complaints or inappropriate forum content but will move said content to another area of the forum, such as the Complaints forum. Should any Officer/moderator purposely delete any content, such individual may no longer enjoy such privileges. Other actions may further ensue."

In addition, please advise me whether a member is permitted to comment, either favorably or unfavorably, on an officer's performance in his office, his actions detrimental to the Association, or his fitness for election or re-election? Is it considered a personal attack to criticize an officer's performance in his office, his actions detrimental to the Association, or his fitness for election or re-election?

When that rule is read in conjunction with the aviso that was referenced by the Vice Commodore, characterizing the annual National Regatta as a mere incidental, optional function, and not one that the members might properly expect their officers to perform, is it reasonable and fair to comment that the officers have been spending entirely too much creative energy on relieving themselves of their responsibilities for their failures, and too much creative energy insulating themselves from criticism than on actually meeting the needs and wishes of the members?

Let me be clear. I appreciate the fact that our officers are volunteers. I was also a volunteer. But even volunteers should be held to reasonable standards of performance, and even volunteers should not be allowed to squelch criticism or to hide their failures. I have respect for a person who has the courage to try something that might be risky or difficult, even if he fails, and would never criticize him. I have little respect for one who is afraid to try.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/29/2013 15:24:58

Commodore
Russ Johnson

Members Avatar

USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 17:08:25

Steve,

Thank you for using this forum.
Yes, there was a post on Racing forum that was deleted either on Aug-21 or Aug-22.
None of the officers or staff were given notice before or after the post was deleted.

When I was made aware of that action, I notified the 8 people who had the ability to delete a forum post that their privileges had been revoked until further notice.
Only after I removed those privileges and sent the corresponding email was I notified any posts were deleted.
Currently, only 2 people have the ability to delete a forum post and I'm one of them.
As you can tell from my tone, I'm disappointed with several people at this point.

Next, I reviewed your comments on the other post on the Racing forum.
I replied to your post and tried to correct some misunderstandings.
After my post, I wasn't very impressed by your reply.
As you can tell from my tone, I'm disappointed with several people at this point.

I sent you a personal email and again I wasn't very impressed by your reply.
As you can tell from my tone, I'm disappointed with several people at this point.

Next, yes, a member can post comments about an officer's performance in their office.
What I think started today's reply regarding the "forum rules" from our Treasurer was how the original post was diverted.
What started out as a post with questions about how to submit a bid for Nationals was diverted to officer performance.
Your last reply to the post stated it's not about sailing anymore but officer performance.
It would greatly help if you would follow the Forum Rules and post your complaint as a separate post.
The Association Business forum would be a good place to start.

Since this is the Forum Complaint post, it's my turn to complain.
I've been Commodore since 2009. At no time have you, or any past Commodore contacted me regarding officer performance, advice, direction or your so called "member needs or member wishes".
If you actually read my Mainsheet articles I've been asking for volunteers for the last several years.
I've also responded to every member email, usually within 24-hours, so it's not like I've been ignoring your emails.

I've tried to stay out those "rude" comments on the forum and not be the "Forum Cop", but I guess some guys like the attention.

Look, if you want to make this little association better, then get involved.
Here some ideas:
-- Submit an article to Mainsheet, we have 4 nice guys who want to help (please be nice to them too).
-- Make friends at your local marina, then form a fleet (it only takes 3 members).
-- Submit a bid to hold an association sanctioned regatta (I've done it, we can help you).
-- Submit a bid for the National regatta (we didn't get a single bid for 2012, 2013, or 2014 yet).
---- I would like nothing more then to have multiple bids.
---- Sure, if you only expect to have 3 boats in your regatta, it's not really a Nationals is it?
---- Note, in 2010 (San Diego) there was only one Capri-25 sailor. Can you really call him a "National Champion" for showing up?
---- We need to fix that situation, but at the same time it wasn't his fault no one else was there.
-- Volunteer to serve as a staff member, we can always use the help.
-- Volunteer to fill a vacant officer position, we have immediate openings.
-- Volunteer to run for office in next election.
---- The past 4 elections all the officers have run unopposed and we didn't have any candidates for some offices.

When you hijack a forum post with angry comments about the 2013 Nationals, I can guarantee fewer members will be likely to submit a bid for the 2014 Nationals, or form a fleet, or volunteer.
As a former Commodore, I would think you would know that.

You can be an angry guy with a keyboard if you want, but if you work with me, we would have gotten more things done by now.
I didn't volunteer to be the "Forum Cop", so please don't make me.
It's no fun for anyone.
Like I said in my email, I'm (still) willing to work with you.

I'm sorry for the rant, but as you can tell from my tone, I'm disappointed with several people at this point.
Russ Johnson
Commodore

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 20:53:09

quote:
Originally posted by Commodore
Yes, there was a post on Racing forum that was deleted either on Aug-21 or Aug-22.
None of the officers or staff were given notice before or after the post was deleted.

Obviously, one of your officers or staff knew about it, because one of them did it. Your attempt to absolve your officers and staff won't fly.

quote:
When I was made aware of that action, I notified the 8 people who had the ability to delete a forum post that their privileges had been revoked until further notice.
Only after I removed those privileges and sent the corresponding email was I notified any posts were deleted.
Currently, only 2 people have the ability to delete a forum post and I'm one of them.

You haven't answered my question. Who did it?

quote:
Next, I reviewed your comments on the other post on the Racing forum.
I replied to your post and tried to correct some misunderstandings.
After my post, I wasn't very impressed by your reply.

Nor have I been the least bit impressed by your replies. I have asked you some very specific questions, and I haven't received answers. On the contrary, you have been vague and evasive.

1. Who deleted my remarks.
2. please advise me whether a member is permitted to comment, either favorably or unfavorably, on an officer's performance in his office, his actions detrimental to the Association, or his fitness for election or re-election?
3. Is it considered a personal attack to criticize an officer's performance in his office, his actions detrimental to the Association, or his fitness for election or re-election?

Your specific answers to these specific questions are important, because I am being vilified for making a personal attack and for making inappropriate comments. Every member of this association should have a right to know whether he has a right to comment, either favorably or unfavorably, on an officer's performance in his office, his actions detrimental to the Association, or his fitness for election or re-election, and, if he has a right to make such comments, then no officer, including the Commodore, has a right to threaten any member with expulsion from the association, or any other penalty. If you can threaten and intimidate a former Commodore who has served the Association for 30 years, you can threaten and intimidate any member. Now, kindly answer my questions.

quote:
I sent you a personal email and again I wasn't very impressed by your reply.

Rather than making a vague critique of my reply, Russ, why don't I just reproduce my reply here, and let the members decide for themselves whether my reply was rational, and "impressive." Here it is, verbatim:

"Russ,

If you didn't approve the deletion of that thread, maybe you should find out who did and explain to them that you are the Commodore and that the decision whether to suppress the free speech of members is yours alone. If you permit your officers to usurp your authority, then it's your responsibility.

I haven't always agreed with all your decisions, Russ, but I have always believed that your actions have been conscientious and in the best interests of the Assn., as you believed them to be. That's all I expect of an officer. My concern is only with the fitness of one person to lead the Assn. Perhaps you could likewise give me the same degree of confidence that I have in your good intentions, and trust that my actions have also been conscientious and in the best interests of the Assn., as I believe them to be.

With regard to the rules under discussion, it would be appropriate for you to decide for yourself whether they really serve the best interests of the Assn., or whether they put roadblocks in the way of bids, and whether they serve primarily to provide cover for anticipated failures. If they don't serve the best interests of the Assn., then it would be appropriate for you to assume leadership and repeal them."

I thought my reply was rational, to the point, offered appropriate suggestions for remedial actions, and wholly temperate, even friendly.

quote:
As you can tell from my tone, I'm disappointed with several people at this point.

You don't have to accept responsibility for the misbehavior of your officers, unless you participate in their misconduct. If you use your power as Commodore to intimidate a member and squelch criticism of an officer who has failed his duties, then you make his problem your problem.

quote:
Next, yes, a member can post comments about an officer's performance in their office.

That doesn't answer my question. I'll ask it yet again: "Is it considered a personal attack to criticize an officer's performance in his office, his actions detrimental to the Association, or his fitness for election or re-election?" That is what caused me to be vilified and threatened with sanctions. Is a member allowed to make those specific comments?

quote:
What I think started today's reply regarding the "forum rules" from our Treasurer was how the original post was diverted.
What started out as a post with questions about how to submit a bid for Nationals was diverted to officer performance.
Your last reply to the post stated it's not about sailing anymore but officer performance.
It would greatly help if you would follow the Forum Rules and post your complaint as a separate post.
The Association Business forum would be a good place to start.

That's so picayunish that it hardly deserves a reply, but you have made it clear that you'd like to see criticisms buried here, where few are likely to discover them.

quote:
Since this is the Forum Complaint post, it's my turn to complain.
I've been Commodore since 2009. At no time have you, or any past Commodore contacted me regarding officer performance, advice, direction or your so called "member needs or member wishes".
If you actually read my Mainsheet articles I've been asking for volunteers for the last several years.
I've also responded to every member email, usually within 24-hours, so it's not like I've been ignoring your emails.

I've tried to stay out those "rude" comments on the forum and not be the "Forum Cop", but I guess some guys like the attention.

Look, if you want to make this little association better, then get involved....

I have served and guided the Association for 30 years, not only as the holder of various offices, but also in many other less formal ways. I have had a number of articles published in Mainsheet, raced in 6 national regattas, developed rules and policies that are still followed and respected, recommended the national association to many newbies on other websites, I fulfilled all my duties as an officer and have freely given whatever help and advice I have been able to offer to our officers, whenever asked, and to our members in every forum. When you have been involved as long and in as many ways as I have, then you can tell me to "get involved."

quote:
When you hijack a forum post with angry comments about the 2013 Nationals, I can guarantee fewer members will be likely to submit a bid for the 2014 Nationals, or form a fleet, or volunteer.
As a former Commodore, I would think you would know that.

Happy, apathetic comments haven't helped us have a national regatta for the past two years, and it isn't looking so good for next year either. It's about time somebody gets angry.

quote:
Like I said in my email, I'm (still) willing to work with you.

I'm sorry for the rant, but as you can tell from my tone, I'm disappointed with several people at this point.

I'm not interested in working with you, Russ, and it isn't enough for you to be disappointed. I'm not the Commodore - you are. You have an officer who has failed to get the job done for you for two years, and he's on the precipice of fumbling it again next year. Are you going to let his failures become your failures? It's up to you to fix the problem, and if he isn't fit to move up to Commodore, you should do something about it. I shouldn't have to.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/29/2013 21:10:06

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 04:57:58

Three questions:

1) Why do you have to get "angry" that there hasn't been a national regatta?

2) Is there no means in the association rules to file a complaint/protest against an officer for failure to do his/her duties? Is there no means to file a petition to remove an officer for failure to perform the duties of the office?

3) Are you planning on competing if there were to be a national regatta?

Just so you know, as a casual reader of the various forums, the method and words you have chosen to express you're concerns/frustrations come across as a personal attack and make you "appear" to be an angry person in general. I do not mean this as a personal attack against you, I just want to let you know how it's coming across to me, my "perception". It makes me not want to read anything on the Racing Forum or have anything to do with racing in general.

I honestly don't think this is the way you mean to come across. I think you mean to come across that you care about the direction the association and racing is headed. It's obvious you are passionate about what you feel is an important subject.

I can understand your passion for this association. After 30 years of blood, sweat, and tears this is "your" association! It's just like my 33 years with the same company makes it "my" company. When I started with "my" company we had 12 locations, we are now the largest company in the world in our industry. I helped build it into what it is today! We occasionally have to tell some younger team members "don't jack up what I helped build"!

Good luck!

Edited by - GaryB on 08/30/2013 04:59:14

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 05:59:33

It is NOT nor has it ever been the Duty of the officers to stage a regatta. So all charges of not fulfilling ones duty is erroneous at best, abusive at worst..
We are charged with soliciting bids from members to host the National’s, we do that vigorously. We do that by following the bylaws as written. Those bylaws have been in place long before any of the current officers were elected.
When the officers in the past used the Nationals as their own plaything it led to abuses that nearly destroyed the assoc. We/I believe the assoc. is for the members NOT for the officers to hold regattas that they can shine at.
BTW - I believe the current bylaws regarding the Nationals were put in place to curb officer abuse of the Nationals.
As Vice Commodore I will continue to work with racers who want to get together and race in any venue. Since the Wayzetta Club held a National regatta, mostly their Capri members, no member has been able to put a plan together.
We hope that changes in the future.

Edited by - Peregrine on 09/17/2013 18:25:01

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 06:43:52

quote:
Originally posted by GaryB

Three questions:

1) Why do you have to get "angry" that there hasn't been a national regatta?

I'm angry because I have participated in our national regattas and know how much fun it is to meet and race with fellow Catalina owners, when handicaps don't mean much, and our members are losing the opportunity to enjoy it. Moreover, we have always been insistent that the national regatta be mostly self-supporting, so that no significant amount of association funds is spent on it. We don't want non-racers to think that any significant amount of their dues are being used to support an activity in which they have no interest. So, to the association members, it's essentially free. Moreover, to many of our members, racing gives them something to get excited about, regardless of whether they participate in it themselves or only vicariously. C27s are a very popular and competitive racing class around here, and I have always believed that the C25 is likewise capable of excellent racing performance. That can make the boats more desirable and marketable. Whether you race or not, the fact that a boat is actively raced is a big plus for the boat's reputation and desirability.

quote:
2) Is there no means in the association rules to file a complaint/protest against an officer for failure to do his/her duties? Is there no means to file a petition to remove an officer for failure to perform the duties of the office?

I know of no such means, and, judging from their behavior here, it's foreseeable that they would vilify anyone who would try to do so, and call it a "personal attack." I don't think they know the difference between a personal attack and a removal for cause. Moreover, as you have seen, they have tried to insulate themselves from blame for failing to present a national regatta by adopting a rule that re-defines it as an optional activity, and not a guaranteed annual event. If you think about it, that's about as ludicrous as adopting a rule that says, "We don't guarantee that our officers won't abscond with association funds," and then using that rule to absolve themselves of responsibility if one of the officers does so. Nobody that I know of ever asked them for a gilt-edged guarantee that a national regatta would take place every year, and I think the fact that our officers spent their creative energy looking for a way to evade responsibility for it says alot about their priorities. But, to put this in perspective, I think most of the officers have done a good job guiding the association overall, and I think, with one exception, they deserve to be advanced upwards to the next office.

quote:
3) Are you planning on competing if there were to be a national regatta?

As you know, I sold my boat. One reason why I was competitive with it is because I was meticulous in prepping it to race. I have said I would consider crewing for someone, if the venue isn't too far, such as on the west coast, or, if a non-racer didn't want to skipper his own boat but wanted someone else to skipper it for him, I would consider doing so, but, with a boat that isn't race prepped or race equipped, the results would be questionable, but I could assure the owner that nobody would try harder.

quote:
Just so you know, as a casual reader of the various forums, the method and words you have chosen to express you're concerns/frustrations come across as a personal attack and make you "appear" to be an angry person in general. I do not mean this as a personal attack against you, I just want to let you know how it's coming across to me, my "perception". It makes me not want to read anything on the Racing Forum or have anything to do with racing in general.

I honestly don't think this is the way you mean to come across. I think you mean to come across that you care about the direction the association and racing is headed. It's obvious you are passionate about what you feel is an important subject.

Gary, the fact that I'm angry doesn't mean I'm wrong and that you should therefore disregard what I'm saying. Sometimes angry people are justified in their anger. I don't conceal my meanings in vague, ambiguous words of diplomacy. There are plenty of people who will do that. I don't. I trust that thoughtful people will understand my meaning and that magnanimous people will excuse my bluntness. I could be wrong about that, though.

quote:
I understand your passion for this association. After 30 years of blood, sweat, and tears this is "your" association! It's just like my 33 years with the same company makes it "my" company. When I started with "my" company we had 12 locations, we are now the largest company in the world in our industry. I helped build it into what it is today! We occasionally have to tell some younger team members "don't jack up what I helped build"!

It's nice of you to say that, Gary, but I have always understood that this is your association, not mine.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 07:15:14

I'm not going to quibble with you, John, over whether it's a duty or not. Somebody has obviously tinkered ineptly with the association's bylaws to try to make it not a duty. I don't know whether it was all or partially done by your fellow officers or by your predecessors, and I don't care. It's shocking to me that any of our officers, or past officers, spent so much time and creative energy scouring the bylaws and eliminating any implication that the presentation of a national regatta is a duty. I'd like to believe that they were more concerned with serving the members than with covering their behinds. But, what's done is done. Regardless of whether or not it is a duty, the national regatta is an important association function that has been conducted annually for almost 30 years. The Vice Commodore is chairman of that committee, and you have failed to find a way to put it on for 2 years.

Edited by - on

Commodore
Russ Johnson

Members Avatar

USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 09:32:43

To All,

I think this is all a big misunderstanding.
I'm at work right now and trying really hard not to work this weekend.
I'm not ignoring this topic, just I won't be able to reply for awhile.

If you can hold off for a few hours I can have a better response.
I should have a response this evening (Pacific timezone).

Thanks, Russ

Edited by - on

Treasurer
Roy Hinrichs

Members Avatar

USA
61 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 10:42:05

Steve, I honestly just don't get you. I know you are a smart guy. But I have to agree with Gary re the way you come across. You are wrong, people do not excuse your bluntness cuz you are not blunt. Blunt is being frank. You come across as frank in a very mean way. In my experience, that gets you no where with people. In this respect, I don't see you as smart.
Our elected Commodore, Russ, has been trying to work with you, yet you insult him. As a past Commodore, one would think you would see where he is coming from and understand his position.
You demand he tell you who deleted your comments. Russ and the officers are not cops first and foremost. And even if the person was of Corinthian status which we are ALL supposed to be by definition, and came forth and admitted he deleted your comments, the Commodore has no responsibility to tell your or any other member. But I know you are smart enough to figure out who the offending culprit is. Must I remind you that his job per the bylaws are to perform other functions as may be warranted for the proper management of the Association.
You might want to re read the bylaws, http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/bylaws.asp and point our where it says he must report that information. And if I am wrong here, please be so kind to point it out. I enjoy learning new things and I am always open and happy to learn from others, as long as it is done in a courteous and respectful tone.
While I may agree with many of your concerns re not having National and that the VC may not show the enthusiasm as you would like, Russ as you know has contacted one of our "Guests", a non member, to pursue their comments re have Nationals. To my understanding, that individual never responded to Russ.
Furthermore, it seems to me, and I may be wrong, but the interest in racing today seems no where of the same interest when you were Commodore or in the last 30 years. I say that as the number of responses from members in the Racing Forum 2013 Nationals thread.
Have you even considered this at all, Steve?
Along those lines, Russ offered you an opportunity with all of your expertise, to work with the Officers on this topic. Sadly you said no, that you did not want to do this. Shame on you. You say you have love for this Association as expressed in your "fervor" but turn down an opportunity to continue your dreams and betterment of the Association. Sorry, that is a dumb move.
Steve, why not embrace rather than show anger. Do something positive with that anger. I know you can make a difference. You are a valuable member and have served this Association well in 30 years. I know members have gotten much as I have, from your experiences that you have shared on the our Forums.
So rather try to refute what I have said here by inserting my quotes in your response, I see you have 3 options:1. make your self useful and work with us, 2. continue as a member knowing where to make you complaints known and that they will be respectfully and promptly answered or 3. move on and use your passion elsewhere, hopefully one that can fulfill you as a person where others will appreciate your "bluntness".
And so that there is no misunderstanding, I wish you well and want to thank you for all you have done for this great Association. I know you are proud to have served as I and as I know Russ is, knowing we have served with only the highest of integrity in our hearts.

Edited by - on

Commodore
Russ Johnson

Members Avatar

USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 11:01:43

Guys,
I know this is the complaint post, but I'm trying to avoid this.
There's some bluntness on both sides, which isn't helping me.
I re-read Steve Milby's comments with my "thoughtful" hat and I'm thinking we agree more than we disagree.
Give me a few hours.
Some day I'll be retired and can spend more time chatting.
Russ

Edited by - on

Commodore
Russ Johnson

Members Avatar

USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 22:46:32

First, I've given this topic some thought and I think there are several misunderstandings.
There are more things where we agree than disagree.

Steve is "upset" (place your superlative here) because there wasn't a Nationals in 2012 or 2013.
I'm upset there hasn't been a Nationals either.

Steve is upset there is no bid for the 2014 Nationals yet.
I'm upset there is no bid yet either.

Steve wants to know what's going to change. Here it's Labor Day weekend and school has started. The Midwest is planning when to put their boats away for the season and no bid yet. Sure, in the spring when there are no bids, there is still time. Now something needs to happen soon, or we will lose another season. If what your doing hasn't worked in 2 years, then change what your doing. It's like finding new members at your yacht club. If guys aren't knocking at your door, then it's time for recruiting. The same is true for bids. If guys aren't submitting bids on their own, then it's time to start knocking on doors to get them. In the old days, "before the Internet", you would have to work harder to get bids.

Steve is upset when he asks what's the plan, he hears "We are following the rules".
Well, change the rules, "We can't change the rules".

Steve is upset when he complained louder, his post was deleted.
I'm upset his post was deleted.

Steve complains louder on a different post.
I get upset Steve complains on a different post.

Here's where my misunderstanding happened.
Steve has been involved with the association for 30 years. I have never worked with Steve before. The bylaws were here when I started. I understand Steve is an attorney. From his comments, I thought Steve was complaining the officers weren't following the bylaws (which he wrote). It wasn't until yesterday, when he said the rules should be changed that I understood that.
I also agree the rules should change.

Next, is the question about does a member have a right to complain.
This looks like a trick question (sorry, my attorney warning went off).
Then is the question about what is a personal attack (another attorney warning).
Here's my answer.
When selecting a jury, there is a notion of what a "reasonable person" would consider. Not a "thoughtful person", not a "magnanimous person", not an "expert witness", just a "reasonable" person.
A member has a right to complain, provided a reasonable person would not consider it offensive or a personal attack.

Next, when a post is diverted (aka hijacked), it turns from informational, to complaining.
There was a comments "I don't read posts on the Racing forum, because there are too many complaints".
I don't like discouraging readers and I don't think Steve wants to discourage readers either, provided his concerns are addressed.

Both topics lead to the "Forum Rules" post. I need to review/change the "Forum Rules".
I also need to give members a place to complain. The "Forum Complaints" post works great for Spammers, but doesn't work for Members who are looking for a reply. I will change this. I'm thinking of a separate folder, where complaints can be discussed, yet separate from the Racing or other forums. More details coming.

Next, there needs to be thresholds for complaints. I have no threshold for Spammers, little threshold for Guests, higher threshold for Members, and highest threshold for past officers.
For those non-member cowboys reading this, don't get any ideas you can kick me around like Steve.

Next, the "Regional Regatta" discussion. This is a Red Herring. We don't have Regional Regattas.
There has never been a qualifier for the Nationals. This is a concept used by the C22 class that won't work for us.
What was discussed was "sanctioned regattas". In the years when there is a Nationals, then any club could have a regatta open to all members. We would put a notice in the Mainsheet and on our website. This was not intended to compete with Nationals. If we can't get a Nationals bid, then why even talk about "sanctioned regattas".

Another misunderstanding. Steve said he doesn't want to "work" with me.
My intent was what should change, as in what "work" needs to be done to address his concerns.
I think Steve meant, he doesn't want to do the "work" to submit a bid for the Nationals.
It's not his regatta, if there is a bid on the East coast, West coast, or in-between it would be better than no regatta bid at all.

Next, what should happen next. From reading Steve's comments, I was thinking he wanted new officers. Now I'm thinking Steve wants to see more actions from anyone to get a good Nationals bid.

Here are my action items, based on timelines.
<ul><li> Review any bids for the 2014 Nationals.</li>
<li> Solicit bids from any members (please send me any leads or contacts).</li>
<li> Recruit volunteers for open officer positions (Secretary, Chief Measurer, Capri-25 Measurer). Please contact me if you are interested.</li>
<li> Make bids for Nationals easier. Including, create sample regatta documents like Notce-of-Race, sailing instructions, skipper packets.</li>
<li> Make organizing Nationals easier, checklists, what you can expect from the Association and what the Association expects from the hosting club.</li>
<li> Change the Regatta rules. When 1 guy in a class shows up, we can't call him "National Champion". We also can't penalized him either. The most common example is C25-Tall Rig. This is a separate class, but it has the fewest number of boats. We need to create a system that is fair.</li>
<li> Create a better Forum complaint and response process.</li>
<li> Update the Forum Rules for complaints and thresholds.</li>
<li> Update the Bylaws (this takes a vote from the Members). I can at least submit changes for a yes/no vote during the next election.</li>
<li> Make creating a fleet easier. </li></ul>

There are too many topics here, for you to reply to this post.
This needs to be put into another post. I can do that too (give me a week).
If you have any leads, please send me an email.
If you want to volunteer, please send me an email.
If you want to submit a bid for Nationals, please send me an email.
If you have any comments, please send me an email.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1762 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 05:20:31

My hat is off to you Russ. Your reply is an excellent example of a well thought out response to a volatile situation. I commend you for your leadership and patience.

FWIW, I am on Steve's side. I don't think he is "angry" so much as he is direct. I think Steve and I are probably very similar in the way we communicate ... my direct, matter-of-fact style of communicating has led to many a misunderstanding over the years. I have no doubt that Steve has the best interests of the Association at heart.

I think your proposed solutions will go a long way toward resolving this issue, and I thank you, Russ, for the time you have devoted to this.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 08:34:23

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Maring

I have no doubt that Steve has the best interests of the Association at heart.

This is what I was trying to say in my post above. You just expressed better! Thanks!

Thank you Russ! I too agree that your comments were well thought out and will go a long way to resolve this issue. Your action items should lead to change that will make this association better.

Edited by - GaryB on 08/31/2013 09:41:52

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2013 : 07:22:42

Guys, since I can no longer edit forum posts, you'll want to take a look at http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27276 There's an inadvertent (I hope) link to a porn site in the third post of the thread that we probably don't want there.

Edited by - on

Commodore
Russ Johnson

Members Avatar

USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2013 : 08:25:14

quote:
Originally posted by delliottg

Guys, since I can no longer edit forum posts, you'll want to take a look at http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27276 There's an inadvertent (I hope) link to a porn site in the third post of the thread that we probably don't want there.

The link on the post has been removed.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2013 : 08:51:03

Well, the humorous part is you linked it to another porn site when you "x-ed" out the original link ...

"X" may not be the best replacement text when you don't want porn links...

However, the tea going through my nose when I saw it was kinda cleansing...

Edited by - delliottg on 09/04/2013 08:52:50

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2013 : 06:29:25

Not only did I step in it, but I stepped in it right in the midst of the perfect storm!
Again Gents, my sincerest apologies.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2013 : 07:03:47

Something new (to me) seems to be happening--I find that I've made double-posts, and then delete one of them. I've also noticed I'm not the only one... It doesn't happen on each of my posts, but a lot of them recently. I'm trying to figure out the pattern that leads to it (or doesn't). Any thoughts?

(Let's see what happens here.)

Edited by - on

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