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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Pintle Replacement Question

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windsong
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318 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/18/2010 : 12:34:32

As I reported in another thread, my lower pintel broke at the bolt hole. The question became, what caused this? As I replaced the broken pintle, I discovered something which may explain the break. However, it raises a question I would pose to the forum.

The pintle and the rudder are not the same shape. There is a groove in the rudder for the pintle, which leaves a void behind the bracket. If you continuing tightening the foreward bolt, as I did on my previous bracket, it bends the bracket AT PRECISELY THE PLACE WHERE IT BROKE.

Frank Butler says I should tighten the bolt, thereby bending the bracket. He's the man, of course. Still, I'd value comments from people in this forum. Please have a look at these pictures. Is your rudder built this way?

This pic shows the groove for the pintle bracket

These two pics show the gap that results from the groove

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC

Edited by - windsong on 08/18/2010 12:35:55

DaveR
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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 13:13:42

Boy I don't like that. Here we've taken the weak link to our boats and used a part not specifically made for that rudder? Maybe I'd fill the gaps with epoxy, I don't know, but I'd be screaming at Catalina.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 14:13:54

I think I'd shim it or fill the gap with something like Marine Tex--then tighten only after the filler was thoroughly set. And I wouldn't torque it too much--just enough to firmly set the lockwasher or nylock nut.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 15:17:29

IMHO
That part is not manufactured correctly for that rudder. I replaced both my pintles this year on my C25 and it was a tight fit from one end of the strap to the other. Somebody's cutting corners. I'd send it back to Catalina Direct and demand a suitable replacement from Catalina.

Edited by - on

redviking
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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 12:06:19

I'd send Frank the whole freaking boat back and request a proper C25 to be custom built. Either that or I'll nickname Catalina "Crapalina." The C250 is just not the same boat.

sten

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 12:31:20

You're a hoot Sten.

As I noted in a previous post I tried to buy a balanced rudder from Catalina. I ended up returning two rudders. Both rudders were poorly crafted. The first had the problem you show in your photos. The rudder is too thin at the pintle mounting point and the "depression" for the mounting is not the same on both sides. I sent that first one back for those reasons. The second rudder had extensive manual glassing done to resolve that problem but the blade was defective. The starboard side had the curved wing shape but the port side was flat. I sent it back too and asked them to contact me when they could make a proper rudder.

Based on my experience, closely checking my friend's 2001 C250 balanced rudder (which has none of these flaws), and talking to the staff at Catalina I have developed a theory. When the C250 production was moved from California to Florida the C250 73" rudder molds were lost or damaged. The current molds they are using are defective. I sent a long e-mail with photos to Gerry Douglas but got no reply.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 08/19/2010 12:32:52

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 17:26:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 You're a hoot Sten.

The current molds they are using are defective. I sent a long e-mail with photos to Gerry Douglas but got no reply.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What did I say??? I just spent some time with a couple on a 2009 309 in my marina and we were discussing this issue. They agree. Their 1995 30 was a much better boat. More rigid, better equipped both above decks and below. That being said, they are stuck with it AND the payments... Buyer beware.

And uh NautiDUCKman - if it were me I would put the boat on a truck and ship it back. I would also schedule a press conference for its arrival and invite all the major sailing pubs to cover it. By the time I got done with Gerry and Frank, they would be begging me to take a 45 footer off of them in trade. Losing rudders is not an option. We've seen two go in what two weeks? Crap in, Crap out. Crapalina250.org... I'm gonna see if it is available.

One failure is one too many and the pics speak for themselves. Now add your story and the lack of a response and steam is coming out of my ears. This boat is for many a starter boat, and this flaw could prove fatal under the right circumstances. Not everyone here would even know what to do in bad conditions with no rudder...

sten

DPO Zephyr - 1982 C25 #3220 SR/FK
Lysistrata - 1973 C&C 39 - St. Pete

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 18:10:23

blah, blah blah....

Of course you'd get Frank Butler to give you a 45 footer.

Oh, I think the other rudder problem was on a C25. Turns out the tiller attachment is not great on all of these boats. Crap in....

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 18:24:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 blah, blah blah....

Of course you'd get Frank Butler to give you a 45 footer.

Oh, I think the other rudder problem was on a C25. Turns out the tiller attachment is not great on all of these boats. Crap in....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

squeeky wheel gets the grease. That's the only real thing I learned while making payroll for all those years and dealing with crappy vendors. Yes, CD does sell a staggered plate for the C25 tiller. I bought it as that too was a design flaw. I'm going to post pics of a real C25 cruiser here... This boat has more miles on it than even Jims. The rudder and tiller are just fine - as are the radar unit, baby stay, wind gen, stainless arch supporting three solar panels, and much more. This was a solid boat. I would still trust my old one offshore. If you have such an egregious issue - as I consider this to be - you should have to cough up a 450 to make atonement. I'll call Gerry for you my friend....

sten

Edited by - on

windsong
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 20:56:28

I appreciate the comments, and I wholeheartedly agree that something has gone haywire in the production of the rudder assembly. However, going to war with Catalina is not really something I have the stomach for. At the same time, I'm not persuaded that I should simply bend the bracket as Frank Butler says I should. I like the idea of filling the void with an epoxy. I was thinking about squirting a bunch of 5200 in the gaps, letting it set, then tightening down on the bolt. This would create a surface against which the pintle strap could tighten, and perhaps it wouldn't bend as much.
What do you think?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 21:12:48

I like Dave's Marine-Tex idea better than 5200. 5200 is flexible even when cured while Marine-Tex will create a sold surface that will provide support for the pintle bracket. Place the pintle on and tighten the bolts to where they should be. Then push Marine-Tex into the gap and fill it. When it cures give a slight extra turn on the bolts.

Edited by - on

windsong
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Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 21:48:12

Randy, That sounds like a plan. I'm going to the boat tomorrow morning, and I'll make the repair then. Thanks for the advice!

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 06:29:33

Would recommend vaseline on the bolts prior to filling with marine tex or you may not be able to move the bolts after it dries.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 06:59:25

FYI, I just inspected our 2005 C250 WB #841, and the indentations for the pintle are parallel and the stainless straps are similarly parallel.

Paul

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 09:52:09

Paul, that is good. I suspect, though, that your WB does not have the 73" rudder which seems to be the one with the problem.

Edited by - on

windsong
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Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 12:10:36

I made the repair using Marine Tex. It filled about 50% of the void. The epoxy was just too thick to reach into the smallest wedge of the void. I think it's certainly better than it was. After I tightened down hard, I could see a slight distortion in the shape of the bracket, but less than it would have been.
However, I'll not sail Windsong again without a spare lower pintle and bolts. Replacing the pintle at sea would be a doable repair, even in rough conditions, provided I had the parts aboard.

Edited by - on

jerlim
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Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 14:31:30

GO STEN

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 18:09:01

I'm going to back-track a little and join the cadre that says you should demand a proper product from Catalina. What you've done might be even stronger, but it's not what any designer or engineer intended. There was too much stress on the pintle bracket at the bolt hole where the bolt had been (perhaps) overtightened, because the bracket did not seat properly on the blade. Catalina owes you a proper rudder.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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816 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 21:32:34

Could the pintle bracket be removed and reshaped with vise and padded spacers?

Edited by - on

Happy D
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Response Posted - 08/21/2010 : 03:22:42

I would cut the legs off the old pintle and us that to shim the new ones.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/21/2010 : 06:25:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I'm going to back-track a little and join the cadre that says you should demand a proper product from Catalina. What you've done might be even stronger, but it's not what any designer or engineer intended. There was too much stress on the pintle bracket at the bolt hole where the bolt had been (perhaps) overtightened, because the bracket did not seat properly on the blade. Catalina owes you a proper rudder.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Welcome aboard Curmudgeon! Why is it that Toyota has to recall a zillion cars and Catalina doesn't have to recall this defect? This is why most modern production boats suck! There are no standards. Just slap it together. Get mad - get a better product!

I'm Sten and I approved this message...

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/21/2010 : 07:50:55

Jim (Sweetcraft), good to hear from you!

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 08/29/2010 : 19:00:01

I finally made it back to my boat this weekend after a few weeks away. I was surprised to see that my boat's pintles look similar to Michael's. There is a gap that gets larger toward the forward edge of the rudder, and probably a very slight bending of the pintles. (I need to look again with a straight edge to confirm this.) However, there does not seem to be any play in the rudder due to this gap, so I am not going tighten down the bolts any further, as I expect that will just stress out the pintles further.

A few words about history. Although my boat is a 1998 model, it has had at least three rudders, and the current one is one year old. Two owners ago the guy pulled off the first or second generation rudder and replaced it with a third generation rudder. Last year the previous owner had the boat put into the water at low tide and the rudder hit bottom and broke, which led to the current replacement.

My Edson boot needs replacement in the offseason (any wonder it tore, given how many replacements have been made?), so I will have to remove the rudder when the boat is on the hard. I'll consider filling in the gap at that time.

Edited by - TakeFive on 08/29/2010 19:03:49

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2010 : 05:56:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 ...so I will have to remove the rudder when the boat is on the hard. I'll consider filling in the gap at that time.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would first back-off the nut on the bolt going through the gap so there's no pressure on the pintle (or remove the pintle altogether), fill the gap, let the filler set up fully, and then snug the bolt down. I'm just speculating that the bolt is already stressing the pintle strap.

Sten would ship the whole thing back to Frank Butler with a note copied to ABYC and maybe the US Coast Guard, with print-outs of this thread attached. Or who knows--maybe he'd send back the whole boat.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/30/2010 06:03:30

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 08/30/2010 : 07:25:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
I would first back-off the nut on the bolt going through the gap so there's no pressure on the pintle (or remove the pintle altogether), fill the gap, let the filler set up fully, and then snug the bolt down. I'm just speculating that the bolt is already stressing the pintle strap...[/i]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
After thinking about it overnight, I cannot see what reason there is to tighten down on the bolt at all. Its sole purpose is to hold the rudder up vertically. Any angular side-to-side motion (i.e., steering) is driven by the steering rod(for pedestal wheels) or the tiller handle. As I mentioned before, there appears to be no play resulting from the slight gap. So tightening the bolt down will serve no purpose other than to provide unnecessary stress to the pintles.

Yes, filling in the gap with epoxy, Marine Tex, etc. would relieve some of the stress if you tighten the bolts, but I am just not sure how necessary that is. The same could be accomplished by shimming that area around the bolts with a couple of nylon washers on either side. I tend to favor that over any permanent modifications to the factory-supplied rudder.

We can complain to Catalina all we want, but I am not convinced that this is a critical tolerance. If Michael's boat was ground-shipped from Florida it was probably done with the rudder removed. My thoery is that the dealer installed it and over-tightened the pintles, causing excessive stress which led to the failure. I would hope that Catalina has a spec for torque wrenching on the nuts - it would be interesting to see how all of our boats compare with that spec.

Edited by - TakeFive on 08/30/2010 07:27:49

JohnP
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Response Posted - 08/30/2010 : 09:33:28

I bought a balanced rudder for my C-25 in the winter of 2008-9, and when it arrived with a 1" chip off the leading bottom edge I thought that defect was highly unusual. I refused to repair it. After my other disappointment at waiting 3 months for them to find the molds sent from California, I was relieved when Catalina sent me a new, good rudder.

Catalina certainly owes both Michael and Rick (and any other C-250 owners with defective rudders) new, properly made rudders that fit the pintle bracket.

Edited by - on

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Michael Hetzer"Windsong"2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984Myrtle Beach, SC

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC