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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Rusted keel bolts

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michaelj
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132 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2010 : 14:00:09

My C 25 was manufactured in 1980 and has a cast iron keel. The keel bolts and nuts are rusted and the boatyard said that the nuts were too rusted to be removed. Last summer I cleaned them all as best I could and coated the nuts with roofing tar. I have just noticed that on a couple of the bolts small bits of metal are flaking off above the nut. What's involved in sitering some new bolts, or should I even be concerned about that ? Thanks.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 14:17:39

If you can, post a picture.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 14:49:43

Use "Search" (above) for "keel bolts" in the C-25 forum--there are a number of discussions. Sistering new bolts is the common remedy, although not an insignificant project. Look at Catalina Direct's site for a kit, and as a potential alternative, see if you can get a quote from a pro. Jim Baumgart had it done.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/29/2010 14:51:16

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 16:44:07

I had 6 new, 3/4 inch, 6 inch long stainless steel bolts inserted in the keel. The boat was in the water. The guy drilled a hole, tapped threads, and screwed a bolt in. This took 1 day per bolt. The cost was $900. The original, badly rusted, bolts were treated with oxalyic acid, then covered in bitumen.

The boat is good for another 30 years. The keel is never coming off (without taking the bottom of the boat with it).

Catalina Direct sells a kit but I would be very hesitant to do this as cast iron is very hard to drill. My pro removed the pop top and used a big drill press.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 20:24:04

Jim:

Was the work done by a yard or did you have to search for someone who would take on the project? My bolts are so/so and I sometimes think about having them re-done . . .

Edited by - on

michaelj
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 08:11:55

Thanks for the responses. Does anyone know someone around Oriental NC who could install sistered keel bolts?

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txbigfoot
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USA
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Response Posted - 01/31/2010 : 20:38:09

I have some of the kit left that I had bought from Catalina Direct. I sent you a email here. Let me know if you dont get it. I have most of the special alloy all thread that they are very proud of and a long pilot bit and maybe the drill bit.

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michaelj
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 06:50:22

I am not sure how to open email on the forum.

Thanks.

Edited by - michaelj on 02/03/2010 04:03:12

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 07:54:15

Michael... People can send e-mails to the address in your profile by clicking the

in the header for your post. I should come right to your address unless your spam filter catches mail sent by certain types of servers. You can send yourself a message to test it. The purpose is to make it unnecessary to expose your address to spammers' harvesting systems, as yours is at the moment.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/01/2010 07:55:07

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 10:17:57

My work was done by a local guy who just fixes keel bolts.

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Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 10:17:26

I sistered in 4 new stainless keel boats last year using a similar setup to what Catalina Direct sells, I used a slightly larger diameter all-thread to match the tap set a fellow forum member loaned me along with a 1/2" heavy duty drill which I picked up at Harbor Freight for about $40. I would say the most concerning thing I experienced was some hard pieces of slag I encountered in the keel as I drilled. Sometimes you could drill along at a nice rate and other times hit a hard spot and spend 15 minutes trying to get a 1/16". I was anticipating filling the holes I could not finish drilling and moving to another spot if I hit a standstill but all four holes were eventually drilled sufficiently deep. Tapping was a breeze. Along with the original 6 bolts I now have four new s/s steel bolts. I would recommend to anyone attempting this to purchase a can of "Rapid Tap Cutting Fluid". I bought a pint but the 4 oz. can would be more than enough. I drilled all day long and never came close to burning up a bit. The wooden sole is about an inch thick and I drilled about three inches deep for each new bolt. A s/s nut and fender washer was then used to secure the new bolt. I coated the threads with anti-seize and used a marine caulking around the bolt where it meets the sole before placing the washer and nut.

http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/5620/nm/Rapid_Tap_Cutting_Fluid

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47991

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 02/02/2010 13:29:48

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 10:37:41

One suggestion to add to Joe's procedure (in addition to the caulk)... Since you're drilling through wood in the keel stub, I think I would (1) drill down through the wood to the cast iron, (2) fill the holes with penetrating epoxy, (3) let it soak into the wood and harden, and then (4) drill down into the cast iron. Water will try to get into the stub, from the bilge or from the "Catalina Smile". You want that wood to remain solid.

Another small item: After a month or two, re-tighten the nuts a little. I suspect some compression is inevitable. But don't crank them so hard as to crush the fiberglass or the wood.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/02/2010 10:41:04

OJ
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Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 17:05:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 . . . after a month or two, re-tighten the nuts a little. I suspect some compression is inevitable. But don't crank them so hard as to crush the fiberglass or the wood.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

. . . or twist the head off the bolt . . .

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 18:52:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 . . . after a month or two, re-tighten the nuts a little. I suspect some compression is inevitable. But don't crank them so hard as to crush the fiberglass or the wood.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">. . . or twist the head off the bolt . . .<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">For cast iron keels, this is generally done with "all thread" rods that are screwed into the tapped holes, and then washers and nuts are added.

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michaelj
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Response Posted - 02/03/2010 : 04:06:40

Thanks, Dave. I hadn't thought about exposing my email address and I have edited it out of that reply. Thanks to all for all of the as usual excellent advice. In my agonizing over all of this I guess I have neglected asking one key question. Does anyone actually know of a case where a keel came off of a Catalina 25 without something like a hard grounding? Thanks.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/03/2010 : 07:43:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by michaelj
 ...Does anyone actually know of a case where a keel came off of a Catalina 25 without something like a hard grounding?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Never heard of one. But I didn't have to worry as much--I had stainless bolts into a lead keel.

Edited by - on

frants
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Response Posted - 02/14/2010 : 15:46:16

How can I find out what the keel is made of? what was used back in the 80's?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/14/2010 : 21:29:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frants
 How can I find out what the keel is made of? what was used back in the 80's?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Catalina used cast iron with mild steel bolts up until something like 1983, when they switched to an encapsulated lead keel with stainless steel bolts. The iron keel is unmistakable--it's essentially bare metal (other than paint), it rusts, and its seam at the hull often creates the "Catalina smile" on the forward edge. The lead keel generally shows no visible seam at the hull, and if you tap it with a hammer or knock a piece off it by hitting a rock, it'll sound, look and feel like an inch-thick asbestos blanket, which I suspect it is. (That was the '80s.) Since lead is denser and doesn't rust, I suspect the encapsulation is primarily to duplicate the dimensions and shape of the less dense iron keel, for class purposes.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/14/2010 21:33:15

frants
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Response Posted - 02/14/2010 : 22:36:51

Thanks Dave!

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 02/14/2010 : 22:52:07

And some countries require that submersed lead be encapsulated.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/15/2010 : 10:00:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 And some countries require that submersed lead be encapsulated.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I didn't know that, but the C-25's lead keel could have been encapsulated in a simple layer or two of fiberglass (like the C-250 wing), in which case it should have been measurably more efficient. The method they chose was puzzling, except that it produced the same thickness as the cast iron keel so both the weight and shape were unchanged. I always wondered (but sorta didn't want to know) what the thick layer on the lead keel was... It seemed pretty much the same as the asbestos on an old furnace we had, which required an $1100 abatement process to remove from the basement.

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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 02/20/2010 : 12:39:01

Gee Dave, you bring up an interesting thought that, for the first time, makes me thankful I have the iron keel complete with weeping rust and NOT the encapsulated version!

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/20/2010 : 13:22:48

I have never heard, from any reliable source, what material was used to encapsulate the Catalina 25 lead keel, but have never heard of a keel made by any boat manufacturer that was encapsulated in asbestos, and cannot think of any quality of asbestos that would make it more suitable than glass fibers for such use. I have always assumed that the lead keel was encased in fiberglass by using a chopper gun to spray it over a form. That would be a quick and efficient way of coating it, and could produce a smooth surface. If we know it to be fact that the keel was encapsulated in asbestos, then we should face that fact, but mere loose speculation could start unfounded rumors that could damage C25 resale values. Is this speculation or fact?

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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 02/20/2010 : 15:11:32

Steve:

I took the asbestos comments as a humorous observation rather than fact.

During the 60's asbestos was identified as being hazardous to humans, originally at time of application, then later in the 70's and early 80's in "certain" end applications. Therefore, by time our boats were being made asbestos was a no no and not commercially being used in any consumer, if not all application -- from brake pads to fire-proof siding. I would be amazed if any boat company, especially a highly reputable one like Catalina would have used any known hazardous material above or below the waterline.

That said, has anyone ever asked Butler, Douglas or anyone at Catalina exactly what was used?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/20/2010 : 15:19:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...Is this speculation or fact?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">To repeat myself, I wondered what it was. I've seen damage to two such keels--not including my own--and examined them pretty closely since they were the same as my own. It was clearly not resin-infused fiberglass. It was a dense, fibrous material that, where penetrated by a rock, sort of flaked away. The texture, density, and surface were virtually identical the the furnace "blanket" I referred to. I guess I shouldn't have mentioned the "A" word, but in that application, it shouldn't be any more dangerous to people than glass fibers and bottom paint are, unless you repair a damaged keel inside your house. I have submitted the question to Catalina via their site, and will submit myself for public lashing when/if I get the answer.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/20/2010 15:22:34

Jan Briede
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Response Posted - 05/21/2010 : 05:56:47

OK, I hope this thread isn't dead. I just had my 1979 boat hauled out. I just got it and it had been in the water for 3 years (I figured I needed to paint the bottom and clean it). The yard told me that the keel was a bit wobbly. I am not yet sure what they mean, or if this is normal. Also what is the Catalina smile?
Thanks.
Jan

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