Association Forum - Conversion to disc brakes

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Conversion to disc brakes

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 3

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/01/2007 : 11:14:51

When we launched Nauti Duck last month one of the drums was frozen and when we got it apart the inside was all rusted out and a mess. So, I am going tho take this opportunity to convert to disc brakes and replace the whole system. After reading other postings and looking at the Champion catalog I am thinking of the following:

Tiedown 7000lb Disc Brake Coupler ($139.99)
Tiedown Single Axle 5 Lug Vented Rotor Disc Brake Kit ($329.95)
Tiedown Second Axle 5 Lug Vented Rotor Disc Brake Kit ($309.95)
Tiedown Blocking Solenoid Valve ($43.95)
Tiedown Solenoid Valve Cover ($13.95)

We launch and retrieve into fresh water several times a year and completely immerse the trailer. I intend to only lift-launch when we visit salt water but I can't rule out that we would launch ramp on rare occasions into salt water. I have seen, and will follow, Arlyn's recommendation for synthetic brake fluid. We have a 2000 Trailrite trailer.

So, does this set of parts look reasonable? Am I missing anything? Can a person do this themselves if they are reasonably mechanically-minded and have tools? I see others have gone with Kodiac discs, are they prefered?

Thank you for any and all input!

We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 17:14:53

I have almost completed part of what you want to do. I have replaced the master cylinder in the system that is for disc brakes. I have a 79 EZ Loader with brakes only on the front axle so that is what I have replaced. The problem is that the 2 flexible brake lines have not arrived but soon maybe. I have the #5 synthetic brake fluid that Arlyn suggested. I want to use the same brake lines but have never flushed brake lines before. What is the best method to do this for the #5 to be used? I used the Kodiac vented E coating disc brakes and they fit exactly. I shared my thoughts about using a bolt with a safey pin for backing and didn't install the backing solenoid. What do you think is best your trailer? Will be heading your direction the last week of June on the way to the San Juans and using the new disc brakes.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 19:42:06

"So, does this set of parts look reasonable?"

Indeed. I kick myself in the pants for not going with disks when I redid mine several years ago.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1009 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 19:43:34

The solenoid is a no-brainer. It blocks the brakes when the reverse light is on. I would be worried that the bolt could put too much pressure on a localized area. The reverse lockout makes backing up at the hotel or gas station a piece of cake. my trailer does not back up without it. It uses a 5 pin trailer connector.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 20:22:25

A blocking solenoid is important, but it is even more important to install a recirculating blocking solenoid. Here's why: If you come to a stop on a downsloping incline you will have pressure on your system. With a blocking solenoid you will still have the pressure in your lines when you activate the solenoid, and backing up will still be difficult, if not impossible. With a recirculating blocking solenoid you will release the pressure in your lines and recirculate the fluid back to your master Cylinder.
Don't ask me why I know this.
Champion trailers are good people to work with. They will drill and tap out the master cylinder for you for a recirculating solenoid for a really nominal fee. I also suggest you get the fittings which go between the solenoid and cylinder/coupler which will permit rotation, otherwise if you have a straight pipe to the solenoid you will not be able to screw it on, the solenoid may hit your trailer frame. Get the Champion people to set all the parts up for you, they have them all.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1009 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2007 : 07:13:39

Mine does not have the recirculation function. So, if the brakes are already slightly applied, the solenoid captures the brake pressure already present. A quick pull forward and then to reverse unloads the brakes. I have not had an issue doing it this way as the reverse lights come on much faster than the tranny shifts into reverse. If you were manuvering around steep terrain near your parking area, It could be much more troublesome. Thanks for the insight on this Frank.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2007 : 08:51:58

if you live in flat Florida, a recirculating solenoid may not be an issue. My street, and driveway in Tennessee has a slight slope to it. Even a slight slope makes a difference, therefore my need for a recirculating solenoid

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2007 : 18:59:25

OK, we went and got the trailer and, what do you know, the other brake was frozen! A few back-and-forths fixed it so no need to take it all apart. Whew! We took the trailer home and I began the project. First thing was to remove the old 6000lb Folton coupler. It was badly rusted. Here is the after photo:

Here is one of the wheels with a drum brake and the brake “backing plate” which I expected. The plate is square with four holes and is welded on the axle. The disk brake will also use this plate. Sorry the photo is dark.

Uh, oh, the non-brake wheels do not have the plates welded on the axles. Do I need a new axle??

That’s it. The project has begun. I will keep up the demo work and order the new stuff Monday. Any ideas re the lack of backing plates on the rear axle is appreciated!

*** Edited to remove the concern about the axles being mounted off-center on the springs. That was an optical illusion caused by unweighting one axle but not the other. ***

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/02/2007 22:57:27

sweetcraft
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 00:37:40

Also a thanks to Frank for putting me on the right track. I went back to Champion and it is all there. I called and the upgrade to the recirculation reverse system is on it's way. I have more than enough time to complete the disc brake upgrade and stay on the cruise schedule to leave the last week of June.

Randy, I hope my pictures are as good as yours. I will do one of the completed job and post it. I still need an input of how to flush the brake lines. You will have all new ones so no problem.

I did get the coupler assembled today so that part is done.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 07:48:06

glad to help, Jim
Champion is a good company to work with
Let us know how you make out

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 12:35:46

My local tire and brake shop - where I've dealt for the past 12 years told me they could R&R disc brakes on two axles cheaper than I could buy them for and do it myself.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 13:01:46

you are lucky to have a local brake shop to R&R your brakes.
Will they also address the different orifice size from your master cylinder, and disable the pressure device which keeps a slight amount of pressure on drum brakes?
That's why they make different activators for drums and discs.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 13:06:14

also,makesure that the brakes discs are stainless, and the calipers are aluminum with bronze bushings. One of the brands out there, I forget the name, is not suitable for salt water. The Tie Down brand is, thus more expensive.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 17:37:57

OK, I’ve taken the next step and completely removed the old drum brakes. Looks like the spindles are in good shape:

A tale of two drum brakes. The one on the right is all black and worn while the one on the left looks pretty darn good.

If anyone wants any of the parts, let me know. Yours for the cost of shipping. For you PNW sailors I will be driving from Eugene to Seattle Friday afternoon and could meet you at an exit to give you parts.

** The parts are now spoken for **

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/04/2007 14:38:44

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 19:53:33

double check the race which your inner seal seats on. Mine had a slight crack on the bottom when the axles were built and it took me a long time to figure out why my seal kept slinging grease.
I replaced the races and now they work great

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 21:34:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Will they also address the different orifice size from your master cylinder, and disable the pressure device which keeps a slight amount of pressure on drum brakes?
That's why they make different activators for drums and discs.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

that's exactly the kind of question that makes my decision to let a pro do it so easy - I don't know how to answer the question - but I have a lot of faith in this shop.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 23:33:28

To each his own. Personally I like doing this sort of thing. It's not all that difficult and in this case is basically a bolt-it-together job. I also like to have a hands-on understanding of how the equipment I rely on works and the ability to fix it. Brakes - drum and disc - have always been a mystery to me. The work I am doing on the brake conversion will resolve that and is fun for me.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/03/2007 23:34:41

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2007 : 17:07:41

Just got off the phone with Shelley at Champion. Wow, does she know a lot about trailers and brakes! She definitely likes the Kodiak brand and prefers the SS versions but they are too rich ($300/wheel) for me so I will go with the standard vented model. I also need to verify that my first axle is the right spindle size (please be the right size) and I do need to replace the rear axle because it does not have the brake mounting plates. She also said the 6600lb Tie Down actuator/coupler is fine, no need to go bigger. So here is my list:

Tie Down 6600lb coupler/actuator $104.95
Tie Down Disk Brake Bleed Solenoid $54.95
Tie Down Solenoid Cover $13.95
Kodiak Silver CAD first axle kit $339.95
Kodiak Silver CAD second axle kit $319.95
3500lb Axle (replace rear axle) $184.95
Shipping this whole thing to Oregon $172.16

For a grand total of $1,190.86 to convert from one axle drum brakes to two axle vented disc brakes with all completly new hardware.

I'll talk it over with the Admiral tonight. We could just do one axle for 1/2 the cost, do both but split the job over two years, or just go for it.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1009 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2007 : 18:18:29

A lot depends on your tow vehicle. My 2500 suburban had such good brakes, I never wanted or needed a 2nd axle braking system. 2nd, is how long term you are with this boat. You may find that a local axle guy can weld the plates on to your existing axle. A couple calls to local trailer supply people should yield a local welder who makes axles overnight. Not a bad person to have in the rolodex.

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

Members Avatar

452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2007 : 22:46:23

This is a great discussion. I am doing this same thing with mine this coming weekend. I am looking at refurbishing as much of the braking and bearings as possible. Although I am thinking the drum brakes will need replaced. The boat has sat for two years. I am with Randy, I do all of my brakes and bearings myself. I will try and post pictures and details of my cost as I will be taking the lowest cost option without sacrificing safety. I wil only be towing the boat about 10 miles each year on flat ground. Have plenty of vehicle to tow also.

Found a couple of good web sites that have info:
http://www.centrevilletrailer.com/news-notices/surgebrake-troubleshootingtips.htm
http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2706&highlight=bleeding+brakes

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2007 : 23:15:13

Talked it over with the Admiral and she came up with another option. We will just do the front axle for now and see how that does. It will be an improvement over the currrent situation. We can do the second axle later if we wish. However, she opted for the Kodiak vented stainless steel discs instead of the regular ones. You gotta love a woman who chooses stainless steel!!

It also turns out that our axle and spindle are the right size so tomorrow I order the parts!

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/04/2007 23:16:19

Jefffriday
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 00:46:02

When it comes time to bleed the system, I have had really good luck using a pressure bleeder, an affordable one made by Motive Products (avail from http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=400590+115 about 60.00) Since I flush all the brake fluid in all the cars every couple of years, the money was well spent. The device has an adaptor that fits over the top of the master cylinder reservoir, the tank is filled with fluid, pumped up to pressure, you then attach a clear piece of tubing to the bleeder valve at the wheel cylinder and put it into a clear receptacle. Open the bleeder valve and the fluid from the tank gets pushed through the system till in runs clean. Be sure to use a sequence that purges all the lines. It's really easy and effective.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 07:14:12

since drums and discs operate at two different pressures, I wonder how that would work out. I wonder if you would need some kind of regulator.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 08:49:40

"I wonder if you would need some kind of regulator."

Correct, pressure reduction valving is commonly used on automobiles with disc fronts and drum rears. Not sure you'd want to do this on a trailer.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 08:56:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 "I wonder if you would need some kind of regulator."

Correct, pressure reduction valving is commonly used on automobiles with disc fronts and drum rears.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Proportioning valves are used even in cars with all disc brakes because less pressure is required on the rear axle of a vehicle.

Edited by - dlucier on 06/05/2007 12:11:52

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 12:09:21

Guys, we will have disc brakes on the front axle and no brakes on the rear axle, not a mix of disc and drum. The trailer does not have brakes on the rear axle.

Jeff, thanks for the tip on the bleeder.

Parts have been ordered. Everything to do one axle with all new parts including coupler, bleeding solenoid, the Kodiak SS vented disc brakes, SS brake lines, shipping, etc totals $962. I'll post photos of the gear when it arrives and then the installation.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/05/2007 14:03:15

Page: of 3

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.