Association Forum - reefing the main

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

reefing the main

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

bradminda
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/12/2008 : 23:40:33

As I have usually sailed in mild winds I have never neede to reef my main. well now I have all new sails and need some info on reefing systems as I plan to put "Jolly Mon" to the test in the San Francisco Bay this summer and just might need to reef. If any other reader lives in the SF, Alameda area I would like to invite you to possibly take a day and sail with my wife and myself on the bay. One can never have to much local knowledge or experience. I could use some for our new sailing local.

Brad

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 12:44:34

First, I think reefing is a topic which is characterized by discussions of how to shorten sail as opposed to how to shorten sail and flatten the shortened sail. A short sail with a deep pocket will not give you the control that a short sail with a flattened shape will. I am a firm believer in two line reefing which allows the tack to be set before the clew. This provides a hard tack to outhaul against when setting the clew reef; that provides a tight foot and a flat sail. By leading my two lines, the forward tack reef line and the aft clew reef line, back along the cabin top I can reef in any wind and on any point of sail from my cockpit. My system is simple, reliable, repeatable, and guarantees a proper highwind reef.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 22:32:36

Frank -
I like it, a lot.
I can't see details of the tack reef, but I can see the results - the tack is smack up against the boom and mast.

I've simply tied the tack down with a line, with one loop on the mast (under the halyards) and one loop on the boom - to keep the tack tight. Then I pulled on the jiffy reef line and it snugged the clew down to the boom and did not require an outhaul. I could have applied an outhaul to really flatten out the sail, but the jiffy reef line pulled it aft pretty effectively.

I notice that you did not tie in your reefs along the foot. I tied in both reefs to keep the foot tightly in contact with the boom.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 08:45:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 I notice that you did not tie in your reefs along the foot. I tied in both reefs to keep the foot tightly in contact with the boom.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Bruce: You shouldn't tie those tightly--they are not reinforced as well as the tack and clew, and you could rip the sail. They're just for "tidying up" the sail. All flattening should be accomplished by the tension between the tack and clew.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/14/2008 08:48:12

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 09:06:05

As someone who is fortunate to sail in an area where the prevailing winds are mostly in the 8-12, 10-15kt range, true opportunities requiring reefing don't come around that often, and although I've practiced reefing, in truth, and this is somewhat embarrasing, I've never employed it.

Just curious, at what windspeed do you reef?

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 11:39:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Just curious, at what windspeed do you reef?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Depends who's onboard - if I'm alone I reef at about 20 kt. If guests are aboard, I reef and replace the 110 jib with the storm jib at about 10-15 kt to avoid swabbing the decks. If my friend from the Narragansett visits, the rule is WHAT DO YOU MEAN, REEF?

Comfort of crew is assisted more when beating to windward by reefing early.

Edited by - JohnP on 05/14/2008 11:40:32

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 11:52:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 If my friend from the Narragansett visits, the rule is WHAT DO YOU MEAN, REEF?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, that is my philosophy too.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/14/2008 11:53:06

gop711
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Armenia
83 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 12:48:23

Back a few weeks ago someone mentioned an article they had read in Sail, about a geezer friendly reefing system. It is a single line reefing system which maintains a good sail shaped when reefed and is easy, fool proof and simple. This system does require two extra cheek blocks, as compared to the single line reefing system you buy from Catalina Direct. Unlike a typical one line reefing system the line was turned on the boom with a cheek block towards the back of the boom then up to the rear reefing point first. Then the line goes forward to the front of the boom where the line is turned to go up to the forward reefing point and then down to the boom where it is tied off. I modified my sinle line reefing system last week, I like it. It is easy to put a single reef in the main and the main has excellent shape.

Greg
1990 C25 WK TR

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 13:27:44

My boat came with single line reefing and I used it the first year. When I read Frank's rationale for his two line reefing, I switched.
When I am reefed, I want the best sail shape possible - and two lines gives me some options.
I find that two line reefing takes about the same amount of time in relative terms.

Two situations for reefing: 1)guests onboard that are new to sailing
2)over-powering wind conditions
In both situations, I leave the dock with the sail reefed and take my time and get it exactly right.
When I had single line reefing, I tried - once, to reef a little past when I should have and found the single line reefing system to be inadequete. With Double line, I find that I am able to do a better job of reefing in stormy conditions.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 14:13:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 Two situations for reefing: 1)guests onboard that are new to sailing<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My guests are usually the type that want to see if we can flip the boat.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 14:37:46

With 2-line reefing, what happens if you have 2 reef points in the sail? Do you wind up with 4 reefing lines? Am I missing something here?

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 15:00:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My guests are usually the type that want to see if we can flip the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am envious.
My guests are of the 'I don't want to spill my wine' variety.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">With 2-line reefing, what happens if you have 2 reef points in the sail? Do you wind up with 4 reefing lines? Am I missing something here?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's another advantage of the two line reefing system. Its easy to pull the lines out of the current reef cringle and feed it through the desired one. You have two lines, both are quite short. Two lines system uses less hardware too.

Edited by - on

Jefffriday
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 15:26:02

Frank, any chance you have any better pictures? I need to resolve this problem as well, I reef often. The winds on our little lake can change really fast with little warning on unstable days. If I suspect things are going to get interesting on any given day, I will start out with one reef even if the winds are less than 10 kits. I have a 150 Genoa on a roller reefer up front. I have watched the boat speed when the winds are up (20+) and get better speed and point higher with it reefed. I had no idea how the reefing was supposed to be set up when I got the boat. I can reef it OK with the single line system I came up with, but I end up attaching the out-haul to the aft reefing point to get decent sail shape. Loosely tying the sail to the boom, reattaching the foot, and finally, re-tightening the halyard. aye ye yi. I can only get it right with the boom amidships on the topping lift, not great. I also tore the sail around the forward reef point (right by the mast) late in the season. The sail was getting very old, so I am not sure how much of a factor that was. I do not think I have the correct setup at the foot of the main. It looks like a 3 or 4 inch hook on the end of the down-haul line (I have an 89 SR, fixed goose neck) I want to get this set up right before she goes in this year with all new sails(still waiting on the spring runoff, in fact, still waiting for it to quit snowing here in the Colorado Mountains).

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 15:58:26

From Harken's web site...

Single Line: Single line reefing kit for boats from 22' to 27' (6.7 m to 8.2 m). Reefing is easy—just ease the halyard to a predetermined mark and pull the single reef line taut.

Dual Line: A cheek block is mounted on one side of the boom for the aft reef point. The forward reef point is secured to a hook at the tack. If the reef line are led to the cockpit, the forward line originates at an eyestrap or padeye on one side of the mast, passes up and through the reef grommet, leads down to a fairlead on the mast before being routed to the cockpit. Location of the blocks and eyestraps is important—they must be positioned to pull down and out to keep the sail flat and to prevent lateral loads from being placed on the luff rope or luff sliders.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 17:06:48

I have the double line reefing with all lines led to cockpit. I can reef in 30 seconds in any wind.

I also have flattening reef/cunningham, first reef and 2nd reef cringles.

I almost never use the flattening reef or 2nd reef. The lines are installed in the first reef spot.

Bitter ends of the lines are led to the boom where they are led through bails and secured with figure 8 knots. This makes it easy to reroute the lines through the other cringles.

For the second reef, the double line system, the line at the leech of the main is not in the right place. If you pull this tight you will pull the slides out of the mast track. For the unlikely event that I need the 2nd reef I have some short lines made up to manually run through the cringle and around the boom.

My outhaul is on a wichard shackle and I can disconnect it and move it to a reefing cringle.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 21:48:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My outhaul is on a wichard shackle and I can disconnect it and move it to a reefing cringle<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which wichard? Captive key?

I broke a cheek block late last season had to use my outhaul as the leech reef line. I thought it was a good solution and have thought about using it as a permanent solution.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 22:18:10

The day I had to reef last year was the time my wife and I sailed on a beat 16 miles in 35 kt gusts. Since the wind was blowing offshore, breaking waves were not a problem. The reefing system worked like a charm.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2008 : 08:16:52

Winds in my area rarely get to be more than 15 and like Don I have never reefed. I suppose the other part to that is that if the wind is blowing more than 15 to 20 it's usually a off the ocean thing and there are 6 to 8 (or 10) foot swells and heavy chop so I'm not going sailing anyway

. Nice to know the mechanics of it though, thanks.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3476 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 09:41:31

My catalina had a pretty bad weather helm with the big jib, and still with the smaller. If the winds blows better than 15ish I love to reef because it balances out the weather helm so much so that I'm considering getting a smaller mainsail.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 10:58:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 My catalina had a pretty bad weather helm with the big jib, and still with the smaller. If the winds blows better than 15ish I love to reef because it balances out the weather helm so much so that I'm considering getting a smaller mainsail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ray... Is your mast raked back? Is your main blown out (not able to be flattened)? Either will contribute to weather helm. However, past 15, reefing generally makes for more comfortable sailing.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 15:03:11

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 18:31:48

"balances out the weather helm so much so that I'm considering getting a smaller mainsail."

Seems like something must be out of 'trim or tune'. These boats are really pretty well behaved. I have the origina 'Mark I' rudder and have never thought helm effort was excessive.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 20:10:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 I have the origina 'Mark I' rudder and have never thought helm effort was excessive.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I only have experience with the balanced rudder so I can't compare performance between the two, but one of our esteemed members said this about the difference between the two rudders...

"I used to have the original issue rudder. In 10 knots the tiller was under my chin because the weather helm was enormous! I bought the 2nd generation one and could not believe the difference. WITH THE SAME SAIL PLAN AND IN THE SAME CONDITIONS I NOW HAVE 2 FINGER STEERING AND ABOUT 4 DEGREES OF WEATHER HELM." - Derek Crawford

With his reputation, I'll take his word for it.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 23:33:02

>"I used to have the original issue rudder. In 10 knots the tiller was under my chin"

He's an old timer here and held in high regard, but I have no idea why he would have the tiller under his chin in 10kts of breeze... maybe he was racing and had a wildly overpowered sail plan. But that's not the point I was trying to make.

My point is that the C25 sails well. If you have the right sail plan and are tuned/trimmed properly you should hardly need a rudder as the boat should be nearly in balance. If you have that much input needed from the rudder (old or new, lee or weather) the forces acting on the boat are out of balance.

If you have heavy C25 helm in 10-15kts of breeze... something is amiss... trim, tune, sails.
YMMV.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2008 : 13:20:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 If you have the right sail plan and are tuned/trimmed properly you should hardly need a rudder as the boat should be nearly in balance. If you have that much input needed from the rudder (old or new, lee or weather) the forces acting on the boat are out of balance.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Without question, one can surely compensate for a suspected lesser rudder by making changes to the sail plan or point of sail. One only needs to look at our brethren next door and their rudder/weatherhelm issues and what they do to compensate. Years ago, a fellow sailor at my marina cut a foot off his rudder so it would be even with his shoal draft keel, but after doing so, he had excessive weatherhelm that required reducing sail much earlier and he lost pointing ability.

I've got to believe Catalina Yachts designed the balanced rudder to address owner complaints, (why fix something if it ain't broke?) and Derek's observations clearly point out that something was not quite right.

So yeah, you can compensate for rudder induced weatherhelm by reefing early, not pointing as high, altering your course, or simply staying in port when the winds are up, but it might be better to fix the root problem rather than going the compensation route. Sort of like getting reading glasses instead of longer arms.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/18/2008 13:24:19

knightwind
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2008 : 15:44:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 First, I think reefing is a topic which is characterized by discussions of how to shorten sail as opposed to how to shorten sail and flatten the shortened sail. A short sail with a deep pocket will not give you the control that a short sail with a flattened shape will. I am a firm believer in two line reefing which allows the tack to be set before the clew. This provides a hard tack to outhaul against when setting the clew reef; that provides a tight foot and a flat sail. By leading my two lines, the forward tack reef line and the aft clew reef line, back along the cabin top I can reef in any wind and on any point of sail from my cockpit. My system is simple, reliable, repeatable, and guarantees a proper highwind reef.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What are those squareframed eyelets along the sail at the reef point levels for? I thought they should be used to lash the sail to the boom...probably using a "reef knot" ;o)

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.