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Thoughts on gas cans

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stang9150
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Initially Posted - 05/01/2018 : 11:19:14

Taking a trip where I will need to carry 10 extra gallons of fuel. I have a 78 without the gas locker,I just have the vented shelf area in the dumpster. My thinking is 2 5 gallon cans on the starboard main deck. I would run a board between the 2 life line stanchions and lash the cans to the board. It will be June and be hot here in Florida, so heat is a concern in the sun. I was going to wrap the cans in a reflective material sort of like a dash board cover on a car. Perhaps even make slip on covers out of the material. They sell it in 25 rolls at lowes for cheap. What have you guys done any other suggestions?

JohnP
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Response Posted - 05/02/2018 : 08:54:58

Two 6 gallon, heavy polypropylene, jerry cans came with the boat from the PO. I keep one empty in the dumpster, and use one at home for yard tools. I have found that this can keeps the ethanol-gas completely dry for several months. The can does not leak any fumes after I fill it up at the gas station and then return home on a hot day. My outboard motor fuel tank, on the other hand, leaks fumes in the car!

I think that while you are sailing, you could safely keep these sorts of gas cans in the cabin or lashed down on deck. I would never store any kind of gas can inside the boat unattended.

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 05/02/2018 : 10:43:33

Your plan sounds reasonable. My only concern with jerry cans is that it's really hard to pour gas into a fuel tank on a small, rolling and bobbing boat in chop. I have three 3 gallon marine gas tanks on my Cal 25. Each is fitted with quick disconnects, so I don't have to pour from one into another. Just connect the fuel hose and go. It's more expensive than jerry cans, but it makes things much easier.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 05/02/2018 : 11:14:12

How about carrying extra fuel in the aft end of the cockpit footwell? The applicability of this suggestion would depend upon the size and shape of your fuel containers.

Maybe cobble together a temporary shelf spanning the cockpit seats to keep sun off the fuel cans and reclaim some of the horizontal area. Thick plywood trimmed to fit level with the top of the radius on the inboard edge of the seats, and beveled to accommodate that radius, with 1x2 lumber cleats attached to the bottom to keep it centered.

I've considered building a plywood and fiberglass removable storage box for that area, with a raised floor to keep it dry, and to avoid blocking the scuppers.

The fuel capacity and storage solution I ended up building for my 1979 Catalina 25 is a permanently installed 12 to 16 gallon internal tank with all the appropriate features, such as isolated ventilated compartment, expensive approved hoses, electric fuel gauge, etc.

And I agree with Steve Milby that swapping fuel lines beats trying to pour gas from one container to another without making a potentially dangerous mess.

� Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 05/02/2018 11:18:34

islander
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Response Posted - 05/02/2018 : 12:39:34

I have three 3gal Marine tanks sitting in my garage. Your more than welcome to come to L.I and get them.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

jerlim
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Response Posted - 05/02/2018 : 17:39:26

WE keep two 2.5g jugs in the port locker and fill them prior to a trip. I installed an eye bolt into the riser of the fuel tank shelf and run a line through the handles of the spare cans back to the eye. It keeps things from bouncing around in the locker. Have never had an issue with fumes, and the newest gas cans have the interlocking no-leak pouring spout which in my experience works well, even in a chop.

Jerry

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2018 : 18:04:36

Something you might want to look into is a Terapump. It is a transfer pump that runs on 2AA batteries. I use mine to transfer gas from my 5 gal can to my outboard or lawnmower

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/02/2018 : 19:06:25

I previously had a similar concern and posted a question about it on Cruiser's Forum. All replied that it was fine to store gas tanks on deck in the hot sun. They also shared two recommendations, which seem good to me:

Fill the tanks, jugs, etc. as full as possible. Fuel vapor can expand in the heat of the sun, causing the tanks, jugs, etc. to bulge.
Seal the tanks, jugs, etc. to prevent fuel from evaporating, and sea spray and moisture from entering.

I also keep extra tanks on board with quick connect fittings like Steve and Leon suggested.

I would hesitate to store the extra tanks full of fuel in the lazarette. ABYC standards state storing fuel below decks is okay if the storage area is open to the air, but the lazarette is not much open to the air. Maybe you could install a blower fan between the lazarette and the cabin. Does anyone know if the original AC switch and DC panel switches were ignition protected?

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 05/02/2018 19:07:14

Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/02/2018 : 20:24:46

The switches on the power panel are not specially designed to prevent sparks or be safe in explosive atmospheres. This makes the fender locker (aka the Dumpster) a particularly dangerous place to store fuel tanks. Open air storage is best, even if exposed to the hot sun, provided your containers are sealed and don�t leak under pressure.
Do whatever you can to prevent spills or transferring gas between cans.
On our old boats, gasoline spilled in the cockpit can find its way down through a crack in the gel coat or scuppers and fill the quarter berth with fumes.
Happened to me and it took a few days to air out the boat at the dock sufficiently to go sailing again.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/03/2018 04:39:11

islander
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Response Posted - 05/03/2018 : 07:19:33

The dumpster and electrical panel is already open to the fuel shelf on a 1978. It doesn't have a dedicated fuel locker. The reality is that he already has gas in the dumpster. If the vent is open on his main gas tank then it is venting into the entire dumpster. Catalina put clam shell vents on the aft corner to comply with ventilation standards for gas storage areas.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/03/2018 07:33:13

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 05/03/2018 : 08:13:12

quote:
Originally posted by islander

The dumpster and electrical panel is already open to the fuel shelf on a 1978. It doesn't have a dedicated fuel locker. The reality is that he already has gas in the dumpster.

That's an inescapable truth, but, if you must have one gas tank in there and add more, you have multiplied the risk of a leak and explosion. We have become comfortable handling gasoline for our cars and lawn mowers, but this is different. It's in an unventilated, confined space, and the risk shouldn't be underestimated. Moreover, aside from the hazard, the nauseating smell of gasoline is hard to get rid of. I think temporary on deck storage during a cruise makes sense.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Erik Cornelison
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Response Posted - 05/03/2018 : 14:18:34

Outside on deck is the only way I can see storing gas cans.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/03/2018 : 15:51:22

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...We have become comfortable handling gasoline for our cars and lawn mowers...

Maybe too comfortable - folks continue to blow themselves up every year when gasoline from jerry cans contacts hot exhaust manifolds on lawn tools.

Edited by - sethp001 on 05/03/2018 15:51:56

Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/03/2018 : 18:20:11

In my winter storage yard there�s a 26 foot runabout that looks altogether perfect when you come up to it towards the bow. When you walk around the side you immediately see the heartbreaking destruction of a fire that completely burned up the engine compartment and the cockpit seating all the way to the transom and down to the waterline. The boat apparently caught fire on the dock last September and has been sitting quietly awaiting several lawsuits. I asked whether the owners planned to salvage anything from the boat (anchor roller, windscreen, dashboard and stainless steel steering and throttle controls) that were all spared from the fire. The yard boss simply told me, �it�s all just evidence�. Boat fires do a lot more damage than just a boat.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

GaryB
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Response Posted - 05/06/2018 : 08:24:52

Quickest and easiest way to transfer fuel. I can drain my 4 gallon tank in 3 minutes.

When the tank your filling gets near full simply lift the end with the ball valve out of the tank you're draining and let the remnants drain out of the hose into the tank your filling. You can easily do this job without spilling a drop and you don't have to worry about batteries.

Super Siphon

You can usually find them at your local auto parts store or Walmart.

BTW... I don't think it's a good idea to fill your plastic fuel containers to the top. Most have a line well below the top indicating where you should stop filling. This allows the fuel to expand without bulging the plastic container. When they bulge they are harder to store securely due to the extended shape. Much easier if they are more or less square or rectangular.

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 05/06/2018 08:32:42

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 05/07/2018 : 23:14:15

High school physics was a long, long time ago, but I seem to remember that volatile liquids evaporate within a closed container until the pressure within the container stabilizes for the particular temperature, regardless of how much liquid or free space there is. A few tablespoons of gasoline in an otherwise "empty" sealed tank (otherwise full of air) would evaporate until the internal pressure stabilized, and at that point the pressure in the small amount of remaining liquid and in the gaseous mixture above it would be equal. Similarly, if an expandable plastic tank was filled absolutely full of gasoline, and then sealed, the liquid would evaporate until the tank expanded and some free space occupied by the gasoline vapor would be created. At that point the small amount of vapor and the large amount of fluid would both be at the same pressure as in the nearly "empty" tank (at the same temperature).

If that's true, then it wouldn't matter how much you filled a completely sealed tank. But the portable tanks we use to hold and dispense fuel aren't completely sealed. They have removable lids, which might or might not seal completely, and a vent to let off excess pressure, and usually even a gage to indicate how much fuel is left (every time I've over-filled any portable tank I've seen liquid fuel in the gage, and that has made me quite nervous). If one of these potential "defects" was to leak vapor only, that might not be as serious (if the tank was out in the open) as if liquid gasoline was dribbling out. I'm guessing that this is the reason why portable tanks have a fill-limit line molded into them - to reduce the likelihood of liquid gasoline leaking.

This circles back to whether to leave a tank out where it can be heated by the sun or in a (well-ventilated) enclosure. The roto-molded plastic tanks we're all familiar with leach the highly volatile fractions of the gasoline mixture right through the tank walls. CARB-certified (California Air Resources Board) tanks are better in this respect than non-CARB models, but they are still relatively far from perfect. The gasoline can become less potent over time if left in a plastic tank that's allowed to heat up from the sunshine.

Also, as has been pointed out, these plastic tanks deform when the pressure builds up inside them. Pressure being directly related to temperature, we should want to keep plastic tanks (or jerry cans, or whatever) cool. Metal tanks can tolerate much higher pressures without permanently deforming, but a pressurized metal tank can be dangerous when the cap is opened - any liquid gasoline that might happen to be in the neck could be expelled forcefully.

Another problem with plastics exposed to sunshine is the degradation from the UV spectrum. High-density polyethylene is not impervious, especially the red plastic used for gasoline tanks (black HDPE is more UV resistant). I've seen old plastic gas tanks that have faded, and I'd be worried that the red dye isn't all that deteriorated. And I suspect that the gasoline itself also degrades from UV.

One last word of caution that I'd like to express is that the seal at the filler cap is the achilles heel of portable gasoline tanks. Washers stiffen over time and become permanently compressed, and they can even become distorted so badly from over-tightening that they squeeze out of the joint and begin to leak. One pair of SeaSense Securestack tanks kept leaking at the cap, and I kept tightening them further, until the tops of the caps separated from the threaded sides - the plastic cracked all the way around - on both of them. Some gas caps can take only so much tightening before they begin "clicking" to release any greater torque. That might prevent damage to the washer, but I can't help but wonder how accurately calibrated this mechanism is or how effective a seal they provide.

There's no absolutely safe way to store and dispense gasoline from portable tanks on a boat. But caution and common sense should make it "safe enough." I think I'm more likely to be killed in a wreck driving to or from the marina than from an explosion or fire on my boat.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/08/2018 : 03:12:17

Hey Lee ! For an early morning read, your posting was pretty depressing. You owe us an optimistic posting on something !

Good write-up ! Don't doubt what you have said. I just use the plastic fuel tank in the vented locker that was designed to hold the fuel, but of course that does not help out for resolving the issue at hand which may be to just store the extra tanks on deck. Still, even though I don't have a problem, your posting made me a bit queasy this morning.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 05/08/2018 : 03:38:57

This takes us back to Stang's proposal in his opening post in this thread.

quote:
My thinking is 2 5 gallon cans on the starboard main deck. I would run a board between the 2 life line stanchions and lash the cans to the board. It will be June and be hot here in Florida, so heat is a concern in the sun. I was going to wrap the cans in a reflective material sort of like a dash board cover on a car.

I think it makes sense.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

stang9150
Navigator

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Response Posted - 05/09/2018 : 10:52:26

Good discussion! Thank you for the tips and information. Going to go with the original plan with new gas cans. This should be fine for a 4 day trip.

HerdOfTurtles
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/09/2018 : 11:35:45

RE: LEE PANZA

My first thought after hearing about keeping the cans as full as possible to mitigate their bulging was the same as yours - vapor pressure is going to be the same full or nearly empty so it'll be the same bulge regardless.

Nevertheless folks are recommending it, presumably based on positive experience.

And after more consideration it makes sense to me why it works, and why people recommend it.

1. It drastically cuts down the amount of gas vapor that expands out of the can when you open it.

2. The liquid-wetted surface area of the gas can is much better at cooling itself down in the surrounding air/wind which keeps the temperature of the vapor lower as well, resulting in lower vapor pressure and less bulge.

1978 Standard Rig
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Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 05/09/2018 : 20:14:52

Maybe the strongest argument for keeping spare gas containers topped-off is that the explosive potential is a function of how much vapor is available, not how much gasoline. Of course, as the gasoline is disbursed in the initial small explosion from a full tank the result can be about as bad as the larger explosion from a near-empty container. Sorry Larry :-)

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/10/2018 : 03:43:06

Lee - Well...thanks for trying ! I did not get quite the queasy feeling from your last posting, so...it's an improvement !! LOL

So, what is the real difference between someone that keeps a plastic gas tank in a vented locker (ie. the later generation 25s) versus keeping the plastic gas tanks on the deck ? The air temperature is the same. So, the only real difference is that the plastic gas tanks on the deck are subject to direct sun which probably heats them up a bit more or a lot more than the ambient air temp. Any thought if the top of the tanks were fitted with a cover or say the tanks were put in a plastic bag to keep them sort of out of direct sunlight but keeping the bag opened/vented or with holes in it ? A colored bag or a sunbrella topping that keeps the tank(s) out of direct sunlight would then be more or less the same in temperature as keeping a plastic gas tank in a vented locker.

In any case, I do not see much of an issue on a 4 day trip. As a normal daily thing, when I sail, I always have my plastic gas tank out of the vented locker and only return it to the locker when I am finished sailing. So, for much of the day, my gas tank is exposed to sunlight (with vented gas cap open.

I guess I could always leave my plastic gas tank in the vented locker and just have the hose exposed to sunlight. But by habit, I take it out of the locker when using it. Not sure but maybe I do that because the fuel hose may not be long enough if tank is in the locker or perhaps it is because the vented locker seems to always get a guunky/greasy coating inside and that would become a more frequent concern if I left the tank in the locker with it's gas cap vented when tank is in use.

Queston: Those that have a vented gas tank locker, do you use it only to store the gas tank or do you leave your gas tank in the locker all the time - storing it and when you use your outboard ?

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 05/10/2018 : 07:14:48

Here's another issue about plastic fuel containers. As I mentioned above, they leak the most volatile components of the gasoline mixture right through the walls. Not much, but some. And this little bit of organic material is enough to support a vast colony of fungi (mold) that can proliferate all over the aft portion of the cockpit. This is apparently the same (or closely related) organism as the mold that blackens areas around whiskey distilleries (try Googling "whiskey fungus"). I've been lazy, lately, and I haven't bothered cleaning the mess up, but I was keeping a plastic fuel tank strapped-down to the rear end of the cockpit sole (with a sun-cover over it) and now the whole area up to the top of the transom is blackened with what looks like soot. Apparently the tiny amount of nutritious fumes and the energy from the sunlight is all they need to propagate happily. I keep meaning to clean it up before some government agency declares this to be a protected habitat, this being California.

Another reason to keep plastic tanks in the locker.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/10/2018 : 09:38:16

I think you are right about the gas/gas fumes permeating the plastic tank. That would explain why at the end of the season, the vented locker looks so gunky. I guess to test this out, I would have to buy a similar portable gas tank out of metal and see if there is a difference.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

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