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Does Your Boat have a preferred direction?

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dvdfishel
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/26/2018 : 09:53:11

Ok All. Informal survey. Does your boat preform better on starboard or port tack?

Mine seems to prefer the port tack. It is both faster and sails closer to the wind. I am not sure why. I do have a single back stay on the port side. This may allow a better sail shape on the port tack since the back stay on the port-side opposes the sail force better on a port reach??? Also my motor in on the starboard side so its weight may be a factor???

My friends 250 wing keel has a split adjustable back stay and I don't think it has a preferred direction.

What do Y'all think?

David Fishel
#848 WB250 2005

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2018 : 11:12:54

I had a single backstay and never noticed a difference, but I didn't watch that closely. The angle away from the center-line is pretty tiny, so the upper shrouds have more to do with the mast being upright side-to-side. However, I can imagine on a somewhat loose rig, the backstay on port might do better at preventing sag in the forestay on port tack, keeping the jib a little flatter. On starboard tack, the mast will be leaning slightly toward the port side, perhaps reducing the tension in the backstay (and thereby the forestay), making the jib fuller. I suspect the tighter the fore/backstay combination, the less difference you'd have between tacks. If you want to eliminate this possible issue as well as give yourself a way to adjust for wind strength and point-of-sail, you might want to install an adjustable, split backstay.

Weight distribution can be a factor... At rest, does a level against the side of the mast show it to be upright? If not, you can adjust it with the shrouds. I'd say that if the hull is listing slightly (maybe to port in your case), you might need to move the mast-head slightly to starboard to get the mast upright at rest to help equalize performance on both tacks. (Aft "rake" is a separate issue.)

You asked what I think... not what I know.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/26/2018 11:14:39

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2018 : 12:13:42

The C250 probably does not do well with an adjustable backstay. Unlike the C25 (or my C34) where the shrouds are orthogonal, the C250's swept-back spreaders and lack of forward lower shrouds causes a lot more inter-dependence between the tension of each piece of running rigging. Tightening the backstay will loosen the upper shrouds, which would reduce compression on the swept-back spreaders, which could cause reverse pre-bend in the mast and a bigger belly in the mainsail.

These complexities cause real headaches for tuning the rig, especially for those who are accustomed to traditional orthogonal rigs. It's a totally different animal from the C25. Then again, the C250 type rig has become very popular among the French cruising boats due to its lighter weight aloft and easier tacking of the Genoa with all the rigging behind the mast.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2018 : 12:57:38

David,

I have a C250WB similar to yours.
I have not noticed any difference between the tacks.
It sounds like you need a little rig tuning.
As the rigging ages, it will stretch at different rates. This is normal wear and tear and easy to adjust.

The C250 uses a modified B&R rig, where the forestay and swept-back shrouds form a triangle to take most of load.
The offset backstay is used for support, but shouldn't be taking the load.
This is a different rig than the C25 or other boats (like the J24).
Note, converting to an adjustable backstay only makes these conditions worse.

Here are some rig tuning tips.
1) Loosen the backstay, of all the rigging the C250 backstay should have the most slack.
Note, other boat builders who use a B&R rig and don't have any backstay.

2) Measure the mast bias of your upper shrouds.
Your mast should not lean to port or starboard.
Put your halyard on the port chainplate then starboard chainplate.
They should be the same distance.
If someone tighten your upper port shroud (making it shorter) then your mast might be "leaning" to port. That can make Port the preferred tack.

3) Measure the mast warp of your lower shrouds.
Attach your halyard to the boom gooseneck fitting.
Tighten the halyard. It should be near the sail track all the way up the mast.
If someone tighten your lower port shroud, the sail track will be pulled away from the halyard.

4) Verify the port and starboard shrouds have the same tension.
The upper shrouds should be firmer than the lowers and port/starboard should have the same.
After the adjustments of the previous steps, something might have loosened up.
Sure, there a Loos Gauge you can buy, but I just go by feel.

5) Mast bend is a rig tuning topic, but shouldn't apply in your case.

6) Mast rake is a rig tuning topic, but shouldn't apply in your case.

7) Random Topic
I have heard of one boat where the factory installed the mast off-center.
This was on a different forum and not a C250.
Verify the mast is on the centerline and both chainplate are equal distance from the mast.

Other Questions.
What size outboard do you have?
Is the outboard a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

Do you have a tiller or wheel?
Wheel steering means you're sitting on the fuel locker.
This gives a different feel than a tiller.

Do you day sail with an empty cabin?
You know a week-long cruise with a fully stocked cooler can change the weight balance.
I'm thinking if you have more weight on port, it would sail flatter and closer to the wind.

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 04/26/2018 13:03:02

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2018 : 13:02:13

Hey Rick,
I wrote my reply and walked away from my computer.
Totally agree with you and you beat me to it.
Russ

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

dvdfishel
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2018 : 08:17:23

Thanks for the helpful comments. I will borrow a friends Loos gauge and re-tune the mast per guidelines. When I got the boat the mast was raked back excessively (per guidelines) and the boat rounded up in the slightest puff of wind. After re-tuning the mast, replacing the rudder and fixing the loose center board the boat sails much better now. Since I have logged many hours since the original tune I think I will re-tune again to see if I can get even better performance.

I do have a wheel steering and a 4 stroke Tohatsu outboard with extra long shaft (85 lbs). I am considering upgrading the rudder again to a larger and longer "blue water" version that is modified to kick up if needed in shallow water. I think this will give be better control when overpowered in the gusts and allow more heeling before rounding up. Now the boat looses control once it heels over 22 degrees. This is much less than a friends 250 wing keel which can stay in control up to 35 degrees.

I do have allot of extra stuff in the boat for camping and this is slowing me down when i compete for the weekly bottle of rum. However, the C250 is not competitive with the light C22 and other faster 22's in our club that I compete with. If I want the rum I guess I need a faster boat.

Thanks again for all of the useful tips

David Fishel
#848 WB250 2005

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2018 : 13:49:45

David,

Your Port/Starboard bias and weather helm are kinda different problems.
Yes, both are impacted by rig tuning, but they have different solutions.

Also, there are different sailor here on the forum, so it's hard to give one right answer.
Many want the least amount of heel when sailing with the family.

Now that you brought up performance sailing, there are more topics.
The first topic of weather helm is sail balance.
I'm guessing you have a 110% jib.
This can easily be overpowered by your main.

To give your boat more performance, you will need some practice to see what works best for you.
A) Try moving the jib cars forward.
This will give the jib more draft, which results in more power.
B) Try to loosen the Mainsheet, so the boom is near the lifeline.
This will impact the sail balance between the main and jib.
You will have more power, more heel, but won't sail as close to the wind.
C) Try adjusting the jib and main until you find a balance and speed that makes you comfortable.

The Loos gauge is optional, I set the rig tension by just feel.

Try racing against your friend with the C250.
Once you can out sail him, then take on the C22 boats.

If you really want to be competitive consider a larger jib, but not for a year or two of testing and getting the other things right.

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 04/30/2018 16:50:09

dvdfishel
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2018 : 15:17:51

Russ, Thanks for the tips!
I upgraded my jib from a 110% to a 135% already and this improved performance substantially. It's easy to roll up if the wind increases and I added the foam luff option to get better sail shape when furled.

On high wind days I have been sailing with jib only and the boat sails effortlessly. It seems my boat prefers the forward center of effort from the sails. Perhaps my mast is still raked back to far. I may try moving the mast further forward and decreasing the recommended 4" rake.

Maybe I need a new main sail???. Mine is original (2005) and perhaps its past its prime although it was much better shape than the 110 jib I replaced.

I have hull #848 close tho yours. Do you still have the original sails?

Thanks

David Fishel
#848 WB250 2005

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2018 : 17:01:10

I didn't read every post all the way through so if this is redundant I apologize.
Is your mast straight? Not just tension on the shrouds but have you measured the mast to the rail on both sides?
One way to do this is bring either main or jib halyard to the rail at the exact same place on both rails. The halyards probably won't reach just add extra line.
There is no reason for a well tuned rig to favor one side or the other.
Having said that weight distribution could have some effect.

John Gisondi
Peregrine #4762

*

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2018 : 20:36:11

The reason I suggested a level on the mast is that if the weight distribution is causing a list to port and the mast is perpendicular to the hull (as the halyard technique would indicate), you might want to shift the mast slightly so it is vertical at rest, and thereby closer to the same angle from vertical on both tacks. If, alternatively, you can easily correct the weight distribution issue, great; but on a cruising boat that might require adjustments you don't want to make.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

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