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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/07/2018 : 20:26:24

Finally getting a bottom job done next week. Will be interesting to see how bad the bottom looks.

My boats always had an ablative (Bottom Kote I believe) but found out today they are going to put a hard paint back on. Think they said it was Pettit Trinidad SR?

Anything I should be worried about when switching? How long should I expect two coats to last with light use?

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2018 : 04:00:22

Gary,

I have not used this paint but reading about it, it is a top of the line hard paint with high copper content (ie. 70%) and has a slime inhibiter. All soft paint must be removed before it is applied.

I thought hard paints generally need to be repainted every year, however, other users have stated that Trinidad SR will last about 3 years, maybe a tad longer.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 03/08/2018 04:00:49

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2018 : 07:31:23

Most of the racers in my Cal 25 fleet use Trinidad SR on the Chesapeake Bay, which is brackish water, and we repaint every 2 years to keep competitive. During each season we have the bottom scrubbed by a diver before every race, which probably erodes the paint a little faster. For a non racer, I'd guess it would probably last about 4 years before the copper content is severely diminished. After two years, the bottom still looks clean and smooth, but I think it loses the smoothness that it has after it has first been applied, and consequently loses a little speed.

I have always applied antifouling myself with a roller, but I tried it with Trinidad and found it's very difficult to get a smooth finish that either a racer or cruiser would find acceptable. My experience with it is limited so far, but I think it has to be sprayed on to get a smooth finish. Most paints smooth out after they're rolled on and before they dry. Trinidad seems to dry before it can smooth out. Maybe it can be rolled on and sanded smooth, but that would be labor intensive.

Sometime around 2014-2015, Irgarol, which prevents slime, became unavailable. Here's a quote from a spring 2017 Sail magazine article that explains it. "...to reduce the amount of copper needed to control fouling and be most effective, today�s copper-bearing antifouling paints will also typically include a co-biocide to help control slime. In the past, Irgarol 1051 was the most common co-biocide in use. However, it has not been available since late 2014. The reason for this is that the manufacturer of Irgarol 1051, BASF, decided to move the manufacture of the biocide from Europe to China. This, in turn, required that an EPA inspection is made of the new facility and the product formally tested. However, unfortunately, this process has taken BASF longer than anticipated, although it is hoped that these antifoulings will be back on the market sometime in 2017."

I just checked and as of Sept. 2017, Petit is claiming that Trinidad SR contains Irgarol again. (Until now, I hadn't heard whether Irgarol was available again, so I'm passing along what I learned in case anyone else is wondering.)

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2018 : 10:27:00

My experience with the slime additives are that they don't work. At least not for me. Maybe a sailboat just doesn't get up enough speed to self clean but I've used expensive paints with the additives and without. Results were no difference in combatting slime so I've found that an ablative with 45 percent copper works for my salt water.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2018 : 11:18:40

I think the benefits of Irgarol are not as apparent in salt and brackish water as elsewhere. I used to sail on a man made reservoir in the heart of farm country. When it rained, manure was washed into the river and creeks, and into the lake, where it fed the algae and created slime on steroids. The problem was so pronounced that the effects of Irgarol were readily apparent. Because we all had to haul our boats out at the end of the season, many of us painted the bottoms each spring, so we always had a fresh coat of paint with all the antifouling properties at full strength.

Also, there are two conditions that can cause your boat bottom to have a slippery, slimy feeling. One cause is algae, which attaches to the bottom and grows in the form of tiny hairs. The other cause is dirt. Over time, extremely fine particles of dirt can settle onto the bottom, and they make the bottom feel slimy, but they aren't attached to the bottom like algae is, and can be scrubbed off fairly easily with a sponge. IMO, Irgarol impedes the growth of algae, but it doesn't prevent the accumulation of dirt particles.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2018 : 15:15:58

A key advantage to ablative paints is more important to us northerners--it's retention of antifouling properties after being exposed to air over a winter or two. Hard paints are generally useless after a winter on the hard. I touch up mine each spring, and only add a coat to the whole bottom about every third year. Irgarol, which is apparently back for 2018, seems to help--my dock is in brackish to salt water depending on the amount of rain, and I never see green fuzz along the waterline. (I now use Pettit Hydrocoat SR.)

A disadvantage of hard paint is that repeated coats build up, and eventually the original coat loses its grip and it comes off in pieces, making the bottom look like the face of the moon until it's all completely removed. It's less of an issue with "thin film" paints like VC-17. But I will never use hard paint again.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/08/2018 15:17:53

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2018 : 20:00:00

Well I was totally wrong on the paint. Turns out it's Pettit Trinidad 75. Trinidad 75

I spoke to the guy doing the job who has been in business at least 10 years and has a good reputation from everything I've heard. He said they will sand down the bottom and get most of the ablative off and he says there's no issue applying Trinidad 75 over the remaining thin film. Said they do it all the time. Besides, my boat hasn't had a bottom job in 10 years so I highly doubt there will be much if any ablative left.

He said I should get 3 - 4 years out of the paint. They can roll or spray the paint and he advised unless I was going to be racing (which I'm not) it's better to roll it on as you get a little thicker coat which will last a little longer. It will be a little rougher than spraying but I don't care.

BTW... according to Pettit's webpage on the Trinidad 75 it can remain out of the water for up to 60 days after the paint is applied.

The guy in the slip next to me is the one that recommended this guy and his paint looked good after 3 years. He used this guy again late last year when he had the bottom re-done.

It's coming out Monday afternoon and going back in on Thursday or Friday so I'll get plenty of pictures before and after.

Also getting the hull and deck buffed and polished. Not sure if this is a good deal or not but getting haul out and re-float, pressure wash, the entire bottom job, and buff and polish for $1,850.00 if we don't run into any problems. If we run into blister issues the buff and polish may have to happen later.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 03/08/2018 20:11:03

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2018 : 06:29:46

Yes you have 60 days to launch the boat after applying the paint and will remain active as long as the boat stays in the water. If you have to haul the boat for some reason it becomes inactive and would need to be repainted before relaunching. That's how I read it.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2018 : 07:10:35

Practical Sailor did a report that explained that, when a boat with Trinidad is hauled, it forms a hard skin over the surface, and that skin prevents the copper and Irgarol from leeching out, rendering it's antifouling properties ineffective. PS said the paint can be reactivated by removing that hard skin with sanding. I haven't been able to get a copy of that report, but have read references to it on their website, and a number of marine technicians have told me the same. Here's a link.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Hard-Antifouling-Paints-and-Haulouts-11003-1.html

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2018 : 08:41:29

Interesting, But I would think that having to sand the paint is counter productive. I want to keep the paint on, Not remove it and at 2 mils thick per coat you could easily remove half of your expensive paint. Also it depends on the amount of time the boat was in the water. I think most would fall in to the #6 category and would need sanding and repainted. Trinidad 75 only has cuprous
oxide . It doesn't have any additives.

quote:
Boats in water for more than 30 days should be pressure washed when hauled, lightly sanded with 100-grit production paper and recoated with antifouling paint, even when re-launching will take place within 72 hours.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/09/2018 08:46:29

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2018 : 10:19:39

Sanding certainly reduces it's longevity, but if you just had a $2000. paint job done that you hoped would last 3-4 seasons, and then unexpectedly have to haul it out for extensive repairs, you might be able to salvage a season or two by sanding and re-launching it. Even if you can only get one more season, you've still saved several hundred dollars worth of the paint job.

I just think our members should know that, notwithstanding what Petit says on their label, Practical Sailor, as well as most of the marine technicians I've talked to, say you can re-vitalize Trinidad after an extended haul-out.

I had my Cal25 painted with Trinidad SR last year, and had to have it hauled to repair a crack in the keel stub this winter, because the boat nearly sank in her slip. The marine service repaired the crack and repainted the repaired area, sanded the rest of the bottom and launched it. I expect it to be clean and fast this season, and I'll probably have it hauled and re-painted the following spring.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2018 : 16:36:43

What are you guys typically paying for a standard bottom job?

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2018 : 17:14:00

Way to much IMO. I had the yard paint the bottom in 5/16. I had them use Ultima SR-40 @ $265. They charge for everything from sticks,rollers,tape,sand paper,pails,thinner, You name it. Labor=$434 Parts=$346 Tax=$69 Environmental charge=$12. Grand total of $860.66. BTW we are not allowed to do it ourselves. Environmental reasons.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2018 : 19:51:02

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Way to much IMO. I had the yard paint the bottom in 5/16. I had them use Ultima SR-40 @ $265. They charge for everything from sticks,rollers,tape,sand paper,pails,thinner, You name it. Labor=$434 Parts=$346 Tax=$69 Environmental charge=$12. Grand total of $860.66. BTW we are not allowed to do it ourselves. Environmental reasons.

I'd be happy with $860! Mine is $1250 including haul and re-launch and pressure washing the bottom. It was $1,100 a month and half ago but the price of paint and yard fees have "supposedly" gone up. Probably because the temperature and demand has gone up!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 03/09/2018 19:51:25

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2018 : 08:07:33

Gary it also depends on labor. In your case I think you said that they were going to take most of the old paint off essentially stripping it. My case was a simple light sanding then paint,One gal. I would have thought that prices would be less where you are verses the Gold coast of L.I. Possibly they are going to apply 2 gal. That would raise the price another $300. I also didn't need to be hauled, Pressure washed or relaunched because all that was already done when the boat was hauled for winter storage.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/10/2018 08:16:04

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2018 : 08:13:27

Good point Scott.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2018 : 14:58:35

Well, for the first time in the 10+ years I've owned her Andiamo is on the hard for more than 30 minutes. Supposed to get her back on Thursday.

I was pleasantly surprised. While the bottom had a fair amount of growth on it there was not near as much as I expected.

Barnacles were not nearly as bad as the last time I had her quick hauled a little over 5 years ago. At that time the boat had only been in the water a year since the previous quick haul and the bottom and keel were loaded with barnacles.

Kinda freaked me out when I turned down the "NARROW" fairway to go to the Travel Lift bay. Wind was blowing 12 - 15 with gust in the low 20's. My luck there were a couple of 40+ foot sport-fisherman yachts on one side that were probably worth $2M each.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 03/12/2018 15:08:22

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2018 : 18:11:56

Boat is supposed to be ready late tomorrow. Only had one blister I think (I think it may have been in the paint). They didn't mention or charge me for repairing it so think it was nothing.

I want to get some new fenders. Does anybody have a suggestion on what type to get? Suggestions for keeping them clean?

Also, anyone replaced the water pump on their motor? How hard was it to do and would you do it again or take it to the shop next time?

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2018 : 03:24:21

"Also, anyone replaced the water pump on their motor? How hard was it to do and would you do it again or take it to the shop next time?"

It's not that hard, but if you don't have someone helping you that's done it before, I would bring it to the shop. There are a couple little things that if you don't know about or how too it will make it harder than it should be.

Tom Curran
1981 Capri 25 Hull #101 "Dirty Debbie"
1988 Watkins 30
PAFB, FL

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2018 : 04:01:21

You might find a video showing step-by-step how it's done if you'll google "How to replace impeller on a 19XX Sea Mule 9.8 hp outboard motor."

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2018 : 19:18:11

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

You might find a video showing step-by-step how it's done if you'll google "How to replace impeller on a 19XX Sea Mule 9.8 hp outboard motor."

I did view a few. Just wondering if anyone had personal experience.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2018 : 04:44:02

Gary, I change mine and for me it's not hard ( Honda). For others it might be. Best advice is the U tube videos or watch someone that has changed one. Everybody's comfort level is different.You should do this if it hasn't been changed in a few years and while the boat is out of the water.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/16/2018 05:16:05

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2018 : 19:46:09

Thanks Scott. Unfortunately the boats back in the water as of yesterday. I didn't get a chance to change it but will in the near future.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 03/16/2018 19:46:46

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2018 : 06:46:14

Gary,

I changed mine out several years ago and was not too hard. Best to have the outboard schematics/repair manual that provides step by step procedure has photos to show details. I have a 9.9 Honda with extra long shaft. When I was purchasing the impeller and assorted other replacement parts at a nearby marina that has all the parts, one issue ! The Honda extra long shaft model has a specific water impeller for it versus the non-extra long shaft models. This is because the XLS has a larger diameter shaft. Ihe impeller they first gave me would not fit on. I brought it back and they found that their electronic parts catalog did not list the correct impeller but when they looked at the box bins on their shelf, they then entered those numbers into the computer and it indicated one impeller number was indeed the one for the XLS Model. Once that was cleared up, the install went smoothly.

By the way, I changed out the 1st impeller after about 6 years or so and it looked fine. Then again, my boat is always in freshwater which may help. I am probably going to replace the impeller again in a year or two - It will coincide with when I pull my boat out for a week or so for a bottom paint job.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

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