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Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/05/2017 : 13:07:17

I'm at my wit's end with our new Marina and it's management and I'd like some input on whether I am out of line. I'll keep it as short as possible.

Our old, but user friendly, marina sold last fall to a company who owns several throughout the country. They canned all but one of the employees and brought in a new manager from the upper east coast. Now, it's obvious to all the sailboaters that this marina now caters to the power boat crowd. The new Marina was built over the winter and all but the sailboat dock was relocated further into the cove. The sailboats had to wait an extra couple months before we moved to the new location and have the convenience of the store and showers (we still don't have power).

When we first tried to enter our new slip our keel hit the understructure cross member. The wind was behind us at the time and pushed us over the structure and into our slip where we were trapped. We raised our keel (thank you swing keel) and backed out. They relocated us to another slip. I wasn't very happy.

Fast forward to mid June. We backed out of the slip and was motoring down the center of the unmarked channel, keep in mind we are now located easily a quarter mile deeper into the cove than before. While motoring in 15' of water our depth meter went from 15' to 4' within 10' of traveling distance and we grounded in mud... In the center of the channel. We ungrounded and sailed for the day. The following day I brought it to the management's attention and they told me I needed to keep right when exiting the marina despite the fact that the marina never gave any depth info to boaters. They attitude this entire time has been non-chalant.

Fast forward again to this past 4th of July. We sailed for a few hours and when we returned we decided to pass our dock into the open water behind and make a straight in approach, as apposed to following the slips and the regular sharp left turn into our slip. We we're favoring the starboard side to catch dock lines and 4' from actually entering our slip we crashed into something under the water. The bow dipped hard and we were thrust back into open water. Thankfully nobody was standing on deck. I yelled at the only marina employee who told me, "There must be a dock anchor there". WTH?! Just to the right of center to the entrance to my slip is a dock anchor?! This is 8' of water and now I'm told there is a 4' cement anchor sitting in the entrance to my slip? This has to be a joke. Guess what their answer to this was..... they will do me a favor by marking this anchor with a buoy. You've got to be kidding me.

I think we're done here and we've talked about going elsewhere. My wife wants to pull the boat, have any damage inspected and ask for a complete season refund.

Thoughts?

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2017 : 13:58:48

In regards to you bumping into things underwater, do you leave the keel down all the time?

In the case of my C25, we lowered the keel just prior to raising the sails and raised the keel right after lowering the sails. Otherwise, while motoring around, the keel was kept in the raised position.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2017 : 14:39:35

Sounds like DavyJ has good advice. In regards to the channel it might not be in the Marina's jurisdiction as far as dredging. Having cement blocks and structure in front of the slip is a ligitiment gripe. Catering to powerboats? Yea I can see that. Power boats probably spend more on repairs vs a sailboat. What is the ratio of power vs sail?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 07/05/2017 14:49:31

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2017 : 16:26:19

We never raise our keel nor do I feel we should ever have to to get to and from the lake. I have never had to raise my keel on this lake other than to splash in the spring and haul out in the fall. Most sailboats here draft in the 4' area but there are a couple that draft 5 and 6 feet. As far as draft clearance, if draft was never mentioned in the annual contract or in person then it would make sense that draft isn't an issue regardless of what you sail. The new Marina is in an area where a marina never existed before. It was not common practice for sailboats to frequent the new marina area. In fact, it was a mooring field for house boats prior to the new Marina.

I think if the management showed more concern for our safety, the safe movement of our boats and acted the least bit sorry that we are damaging our boats on their equipment then I might not be so angry. If you punctured tires on your car because nails were poured in your driveway mix, it should upset you. You paid for a service and didn't get it.

As far as sailboat to power boat ratio, I'd say it probably 6-8 power boats for every sailboat. We only have about 14 sailboats on the water right now.

Sorry for sounding angry.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2017 : 18:15:02

There's a marina on Canyon Lake, TX that when I was kid had about 60/40 mix of power boats to sailboats. Over the past few years the marina has expanded a lot and was probably 75/25 to 80/20 until recently.

I was looking at some pictures online a couple of days ago and apparently late last summer/early fall they replaced one entire long dock that was all sailboats on both sides with a covered slip that's now all power boats. They might have replaced a 2nd dock as well but I could not tell for sure in the pictures.

Needless to say I'd guess the ratio is now 90/10 power boats.

For your situation, I'd go to them and ask for a different slip then if possible scour the approach and slip with a depth sounder to make sure there are no other surprises.

If they give you any push-back or attitude I'd go straight to the corporate office and explain what's going on and the attitude your getting. Hopefully that will make something happen.

If not, it's hasta la vista baby and file a claim in small claims court if you can to get your money back and break the lease.

Another option would be to go to the Coast Guard if on the coast and complain the marina is unsafe for navigation. If it happens to be on a lake, then maybe it's managed by the Corps of Engineers and I would think there'd be a good chance something would happen.

Would be funny if you could get out of your lease AND then the marina is forced to move it back out into deeper water!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 07/05/2017 18:26:59

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9018 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2017 : 18:38:37

Regardless of the ratio, they apparently moved the sailboats to the least favorable location for sailboats. One has to assume that sailboats as a class will need more depth--at least 5'. Powerboats as a group need about 3' until you get to pretty large inboards. It sounds to me like they'd like to see you gone so they can accommodate more powerboats who will use more of their services for fixing their torn stern-drive bellows, jammed trim tabs, cracked lower units, bent props, scarred topsides, and crunched bows.

Do you have any reasonable alternatives?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Kper
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2017 : 02:36:53

This is an Army Corps lake. I used to work here part time so I know a little bit about what the Corps requires of the marina and they will be one of my stops for more info.

The sailboat dock is full and they won't add more slips . Our only in-state alternative is about an hour away. This lake is 15 minutes from home but many have already left. This company now owns 2 of the 3 decent sailing lakes in the state so prices are through the roof. The admiral wants to move the boat to Green Bay if this doesn't work out... We found a lovely place there and it is quite literally pennies on the dollar compared to here and the marina staff is great. Another thing to add to the equation is we won't be here much longer, anyway. Uncle Sam is destroying next summer for me and late the following year we are retiring and leaving the state. So, regardless of the outcome we won't be coming back.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 07/06/2017 02:40:01

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2017 : 04:52:20

That sounds all to familiar. The marina I am in caters to power boats. We were without power and water from Mid March to last week. They fixed the marina is stages and the sailboat dock was the last and still is not completely repaired from the storm damage in March, nor is it properly anchored yet. I was able to move to a slip that was not damaged a couple of weeks ago. It is the only marina on the lake and the prices are the highest in the area. I stay there because the lake level is the most consistent of the lakes in the area (that is a big plus in north Texas) and it is closest to the house. Besides there is a great group of fellow sailors there. There are eight docks and half of two of them are sailboats. The only empty ones are the damaged ones that cannot be used. I bet I can guess the name of the owners.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2017 : 06:28:11

Would it be Safe H..bor. This is who took over all the Brewer's Marina's including mine making them the largest Marina owners with 63 across 17 states. They are out of Texas.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 07/06/2017 07:01:42

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2017 : 08:11:30

Just an add-on... the old marina had 15+ feet of depth, the new one sits at 8 so if the lake drops as little as 4' many sailboats will be stuck in the mud in their slip. I don't think sailboats get much consideration, probably because we don't require much in the form of services.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2017 : 09:07:27

Kyle, we also burn less gas in a year than a stinkpotter burns just turning on his engine.
GaryB, yes Canyon Lake Marina converted B dock (where we were) to a covered dock for power boats. It was filled in about 5 weeks! Virtually all of the HCYC racers have moved down the lake to Lake Canyon Yacht Club making it difficult to form fleets in HCYC's races. When we joined the yacht club in 1989, it was 65/35 sail/power. Now it's probably 85/15. In a small way we are happy that we quit sailing.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2017 : 17:45:22

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

Kyle, we also burn less gas in a year than a stinkpotter burns just turning on his engine.
GaryB, yes Canyon Lake Marina converted B dock (where we were) to a covered dock for power boats. It was filled in about 5 weeks! Virtually all of the HCYC racers have moved down the lake to Lake Canyon Yacht Club making it difficult to form fleets in HCYC's races. When we joined the yacht club in 1989, it was 65/35 sail/power. Now it's probably 85/15. In a small way we are happy that we quit sailing.

LCYC is a very nice, sail only facility. If I lived closer I'd move my boat up there in a second. Have thought more than once of doing that anyway. Great location on the lake, 80'+ minimum water depths, and only 3 minutes to the open water.

Soo, do you miss the boat and/or sailing?

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2017 : 05:20:31

Got a call last night that our marina has blown apart again and we now are without electricity & water-AGAIN. Thirty mile an hour winds did it.
I just can't believe the corps of Engineers do not make the owners fix it properly. We have contacted them and they have made an inspection which apparently does not include how the marina is constructed nor anchored. They put a new pedestal at my slip that no longer has a breaker to shut off power, as the others do. So far this year we have been without facilities for about 3 1/2 months. It is a monopoly on the lake as the other marina was destroyed in the storm last March and never re-opened and is now gone completely. A fellow sailor asked if he could get a reduced rate when power and water was not available and they told him, if he didn't like it to leave-and he did.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - hewebb on 07/08/2017 05:22:09

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2017 : 07:43:57

GaryB, yes I do miss sailing and especially the racing competition, but not as much as I might have as my health now virtually precludes any hard physical effort.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9018 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2017 : 10:41:47

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

Kyle, we also burn less gas in a year than a stinkpotter burns just turning on his engine...

Wellllll... maybe... I've averaged under 1.9 gallons per hour in 10 years with my 225 hp Honda, albeit much of the time at no-wake speed (approximately the C-25's hull speed)--the rest at 25+ knots. That's something like four times the fuel as my Honda 8, for 16 times the displacement and 28 times the power. Of course, I have to keep it running to get anywhere...

(I know... "On a sailboat, you're already there!")

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/08/2017 10:44:15

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2017 : 19:28:22

quote:
Originally posted by hewebb

Got a call last night that our marina has blown apart again and we now are without electricity & water-AGAIN. Thirty mile an hour winds did it.
I just can't believe the corps of Engineers do not make the owners fix it properly. We have contacted them and they have made an inspection which apparently does not include how the marina is constructed nor anchored. They put a new pedestal at my slip that no longer has a breaker to shut off power, as the others do. So far this year we have been without facilities for about 3 1/2 months. It is a monopoly on the lake as the other marina was destroyed in the storm last March and never re-opened and is now gone completely. A fellow sailor asked if he could get a reduced rate when power and water was not available and they told him, if he didn't like it to leave-and he did.

I'd be gone! Sooner or later boats are going to get damaged.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2017 : 19:29:56

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

GaryB, yes I do miss sailing and especially the racing competition, but not as much as I might have as my health now virtually precludes any hard physical effort.

Sorry to hear of your health issues Derek.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2017 : 21:23:34

Now I'm beyond angry.
Motoring out past the power boat docks at almost 2 knots and we hit what must have been another dock anchor. Was a good jar. I may have to talk to a lawyer now before I send my letter... this place is now paying for an inspection, at a minimum.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2017 : 06:41:34

We used "anchors with cables early in our club but ultimately drove poles along the centerline of the docks and at the end of the fingers that let the docks float with water level changes. Can you form a sailboat association at the marina and sub lease the entire dock for your "club"? You could then fix your issues. I am so often reminded of how lucky we mud puddle sailors are when I read about problems like this; our private member operated "sailboat only" club is a God send. It is good to be a Kansan...

Frank Hopper

Edited by - pastmember on 07/10/2017 06:49:44

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2017 : 12:36:07

Frank, our contract strictly states no sub leasing so they have a death grip on boaters here.

Not that it will do any good but, we have compiled a letter to the marina owners explaining our displeasure and what we expect from them as a minimum, i.e. slip reassignment (not sure how that will be possible with a full dock), all underwater hazards marked (a former employee and friend says there are dozens of anchors and they ignored recommendations to use helicoil anchors due to limited depth - so it a virtual mine field for us), reimbursement for the first 2 months due to lack of facilities and service as promised and the use of the marina sling to inspect our boat when we haul out, free of charge.

We don't think we have a chance in you know where of getting all these due to their monopoly and past history but, do you think we are unreasonable?

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2017 : 12:47:45

I don't think your unreasonable but most Marina's have lawyers write their contracts and are almost air tight in protection. I know that my marina is that way. You can't sue them but they can sue you for any damage your boat may cause to their property. I feel your frustration.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2017 : 16:46:07

I had another owner share confidentially that he received a reduced rate for the season for the "foreseen" lack of services. The only difference is they sent their letter prior to coughing up their check for the season.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.