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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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From C25 to C250

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DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/12/2017 : 06:26:09

Well I didn't actually make the switch, but I was able to take out a C250k (not sure what k stands for) for a really nice day sail on the Potomac River around D.C. yesterday. Another one of those unseasonably nice days and my future brother in-law had me out on a boat he has access to through a sailing club (SCOW). I was excited as this was my first time on a 250. We had a nice little sail down to the National Harbor area until the wind died, we floated and relaxed for a while before heading back under power. All in all I thought the 250 was a great boat and certainly a lot of for the package. While there were a number of things that I wasn't really a fan of, I have to say that the walk off stern with captain chairs is awesome! I do question the jib sheet winches on the cabin top as single handing seems practically impossible. Has any moved these to the combings? Also, between the jib, lifeline placement, standing and running rigging there seemed to be endless chafing. Down below is quite a different layout with an enclosed head to the side of the companionway and no bulkhead forward. The aft berth certainly is improved. All in all it was great to experience the boat so now I can understand the other half of this forum lol. Only took a couple of random photos but also there was a C25 berthed next to our boat that was well taken care of and most likely a member on this forum, boat was called TOPAZ.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3368 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2017 : 13:25:10

You were in my neck of the woods. I am across from the airport just onto the Anacostia River close to where it intersects the Potomac. I was on my boat today - The upholstery outfit dropped off all my cushions (interior and exterior). They all came out great.

I was going to go out today but the rain was coming into our area sporadically but now that I am home, the sun is out !

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

michael.j.wenger
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2017 : 13:42:29

Great post, DB: I've been curious as to a comparison between the C25 and the C250. Do you have a sense for when you'd prefer one boat over the other?

Michael Wenger
Norman OK (Lake Thunderbird)
"Sea of Tea" (SK/TR)

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2017 : 18:58:03

It's had to say because I've spent 3 years making my C25 exactly the perfect fit for me and therefore would take it any day. There are some things I would take from the 250 and put on my 25 if I could, being the cockpit size and open transom. Maybe if I had a C250 and spent years making it right for me it would be a better fit but that being said, I think I like my C25 better. At least for my uses.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2017 : 06:39:17

Both boats are all around good performers, and choosing between them depends largely on personal preferences. and how you'll use the boat.

For trailerability, I think the C250 gets the nod. It's lighter, especially with water ballast, so it takes less horsepower to tow it. If you'll keep the boat in the water, trailerability won't mean much to you.

If you sail shorthanded alot, or prefer a boat that's really easy to sail, you'll like the C250. Almost all the C25 sailors I know carry two sails - a 150 and a 110. In lighter winds, a 150 will help keep a C25 moving well, but it can be difficult to tack, because it snags on the rigging when you tack. A smaller jib is far less likely to snag on the rigging, and tailing the jib will be easier because the jibsheets will be shorter. A C250 sails well on a 110 or a 130% jib, and that will make sailhandling much easier.

When the going gets rough, I would personally prefer the C25. It's weight would help it drive through the chop. That being said, some C250 owners have reported that it too can handle heavy weather well.

It's human nature that we prefer the boat we own until we sell it and buy a different boat, and then we prefer that boat.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2017 : 06:43:49

K means Keel which means you were on a boat with decent headroom, the WB has a raised floor and not as comfortable.
On our windy lake no 250 of the 5 that have been here has lasted more than a year before leaving for a different lake. Not a great high wind boat. If you read the 250 form they have threads about putting weight in the bow to help the handling. As a fan of the 25, you have the pocket yacht.

Frank Hopper

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2017 : 12:02:22

It appeared to me that back around 1990 Catalina was struggling against Hunter and Macgregor, who were making lighter, more trailerable 25-footers at lower prices than the C-25 was built for. Also, the others had broader sterns for more spacious cockpits in addition to step-through transoms, so the C-25 molds had become obsolete. They also had more open interiors--attractive in smaller boats... so you can see where all of that led, although it took about four years ('91-'95) with no 25' Catalina model.

Catalina offered tall rig and fin keel versions of the C-250 for a brief period, but I suspect the TR was too tender and the FK was unpopular for a "trailerable" boat--both were dropped early on. (I suspect in light air and flat water the tall-fin C-250 would smoke the C-25--in heavier conditions, the reverse.) They made about 170 250s in the first year (1995), about 50 in 2000, and it looks like maybe around 75 total during the last five years of production. So the market for that category had left, and the competition had give up, too. About all you can get in a new 25-footer now is a Bendy-toy sport boat or a high-end daysailer.

When we bought our 14-year-old C-25 in 1999, we thought Catalina had done a nice job with the C-250, but they were all pretty new so they didn't fit our budget (having just completed college bills for two kids). There are differences and things to like about both boats. My favorite has to be the '89-91 C-25 SR/FK (or a TR with a raised boom and double reef points).

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/13/2017 12:06:17

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2017 : 08:48:59

I raced on a C250WK one time. Thank heavens I never have to do it again. When you have to reef the jib in 10 knots wind it's way too tender a boat. We did semi-controlled round-ups all the way to the weather mark.
Just my 2c.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2017 : 12:23:39

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

I raced on a C250WK one time. Thank heavens I never have to do it again. When you have to reef the jib in 10 knots wind it's way too tender a boat. We did semi-controlled round-ups all the way to the weather mark.
Just my 2c.

To those of us who raced the relatively heavy C25 for many years, the C250 seems tender by comparison, but I have been reluctant to conclude that the C250 really is tender when sailed by someone who really knows and understands the boat. I'm sure of one thing. You have to think very differently about sail choice and sail trim when you sail a C250. You can't sail it the same way you would sail a C25.

Arlyn Stewart is by far the most skilled and technically knowledgeable C250 sailor I've known, and I remember him recounting getting caught in severe heavy weather, and the boat, in his hands, stood up to it. Other C250 owners on the forum have confirmed the boat's seakeeping ability. Earlier I said my preference would be for a C25 in heavy weather, but that's partly because I never sailed a C250 enough to really get to understand how to get the best performance out of it.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2017 : 23:09:20

Derek... You reefed the jib and then complained about doing round-ups? Did it ever occur that you unbalanced the rig toward weather by starting with reefing the jib? How about reefing the main?

I agree, 10 knots shouldn't overpower a 25-footer, but there have also been issues with the "generations" of rudders and their ability, with the broader stern of the C-250, to maintain enough bite when heeled. Later (deeper) generations apparently helped.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2017 : 08:41:45

Hi Dave, I was crewing for the owner - "he said reef the jib" so I did. Incidentally, "This Side Up" could sail rings around them.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2017 : 19:50:56

TSU could sail rings around most C-25s, too!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/15/2017 19:52:02

TEM58
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2017 : 20:50:57

I sailed a C25 SR SK for several years and really enjoyed it. It was in great condition by the time I sold it, and provided many happy adventures. As much as we enjoyed it, there were several things that annoyed me however.

When a 250 K in excellent condition at a very good price came available nearby, I took a look at it and liked it a lot. I had done a tremendous amount of research and was fairly confident I knew what I was gaining with the 250/giving up with the 25. I gained a much larger cockpit, mid boom sheeting with a slightly more effective traveler, and far more cabin space. One of the sore points for my wife was having to climb over the rail to use the ladder on the 25-- the walk through transom on the 250 has been a huge hit. Although the 250 normally has wheel steering, this one came with tiller and an uninstalled wheel kit. I was very keen on that as I didn't want to give up the space for the wheel.

As noted there is a marked difference in sailing characteristics between the two boats. The 25 is far more forgiving than the 250 and less susceptible to sudden variations in wind speed. The 250 takes much more concentration and anticipation once winds get above 12-14 than I ever had to devote to the 25. True statement that you have to reef way before you would on the 25. Honestly, I struggled with the boat until I finally got the rig tuned correctly. I went through Arlyn's instructions three times before I think I got it close to right. I've never thought I needed ballast in the bow as many have done but maybe I'll do it one day to see how it is.

Unlike with the 25, I now reef the main before leaving the dock without a second thought if wind will be over 12, but many times I find I'll shake it out after getting out of the marina. I've also become quite good at putting the reef back in quickly though once the winds pick up! I rarely reef the 110 (as Dave pointed out) but I have on occasion. I race with our club, and do ok. Win some lose some, but I don't have any illusions about speed. The boat really stands out on a light wind day though.

There are things I really miss about the 25, but as usual every boat is a compromise.

Tim M
�Perfect Match II�
2003 C350 #35
Cruising FL
PO "Wine Down"
2000 C250 WK #453
PO "Perfect Match"
1983 C25 SR/SK #3932
Lake Belton
Belton, TX

Edited by - TEM58 on 02/16/2017 07:43:14

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2017 : 20:24:30

That's just it, every boat is right for somebody. The important thing is to do your homework and know what you want.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2017 : 08:16:07

...and "what you want" evolves with experience and life changes. For example, you might fall in love with racing and want a locally popular one-design, or a boat that can finish toward the front of the PHRF fleet. Or the time might come when you no longer care about a livable cabin, but would like something that takes less effort to day-sail (or something that doesn't even have sails...

)

I say don't over-analyze; it's likely you'll start dreaming about another boat no matter which one you choose now. (It helps to buy a used, locally known model rather than new--changing your mind won't cost nearly as much.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

TEM58
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2017 : 21:37:58

Couldn't resist. This is from our club race this past Saturday. The 25 is just ahead of us at the windward mark, then we passed him a few minutes later. Finished the race in second place behind a Ranger 22, and just in front of a Capri 22 and this 25. There was a mix of six other boats further back. Good times.

Tim M
�Perfect Match II�
2003 C350 #35
Cruising FL
PO "Wine Down"
2000 C250 WK #453
PO "Perfect Match"
1983 C25 SR/SK #3932
Lake Belton
Belton, TX

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2017 : 06:44:05

Go get 'em Tim!

When I bought my C25, in 1981, it was generally thought to be a mom 'n pop cruising boat, and consequently, racers with skills didn't sail them. You have to see a boat in the hands of a skilled racer to fully appreciate the performance that it's capable of giving. I have always believed the C250 is not given the respect it deserves for the same reason. I have seen C250s in the hands of skilled racers, and they can be very competitive with C25s, and especially so in light air. If you want to have some fun, beat some "hot dogs" with a mom 'n pop cruising boat.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2017 : 09:54:53

It's especially fun to beat some of the big J's across the finish line and not even need your handicap!

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2017 : 18:13:32

We take special joy in the little victories we get every once-in-a-while. Last year I overtook a J30 in my little old 1960 Cal 25 in light air on a broad reach, drove across his transom to clear my air and got to windward of him, and then passed him on the windward side. He was so demoralized that he retired from the race. Sometimes I think I should feel compassion for having made him feel bad, and at other times, I figure he has probably derided my humble little boat in the past, so, screw him!

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2017 : 08:21:31

One of my racing friends once said "All racing is fun, but it's the most fun when you win"

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2017 : 14:36:18

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

"All racing is fun, but it's the most fun when you win"

My wife and I crewed for some friends in a club O/D match race once... (You finish first, or last.) We got shellacked, mostly due to currents. The skipper did not take it well, and his wife was embarrassed by his attitute. It should have been fun one way or the other, but it wasn't.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.